Taxes And Consequences: Barack Obama's Tax Plan For Wall Street

It’s official: Wall Street loves Barack Obama. In 2007, even before he became widely-recognized as the front-runner for the Democratic nomination, Obama pulled in a total of $1.7 million from employees at 12 major Wall Street firms, according to a survey by the McClatchy news agency. Those numbers included $288,835 from Goldman Sachs, $242,395 from UBS and $226,805 from Lehman Brothers. He’s reportedly doing even better now that he has pulled ahead of Hilary Clinton in most polls. Money from hedge funds and private equity funds is pouring into his campaign coffers.

Well it’s a good thing that Wall Street loves giving money to Obama because if he gets elected, employees at Wall Street firms will be sending much larger checks his way thanks to tax increases. Obama has promises to end the Bush tax cuts. “That is a 3% bump across the board to the bad old days when associates faced a marginal federal tax rate of 36%,” Ted Frank wrote on our sibling blog AboveTheLaw when he analyzed the tax effects of Obamanomics on law firm associates.

We decided to take Frank’s analysis and apply it to Wall Street. Specifically, we decided to look at the effect of Obamanomics on an associate at an investment bank in his first year out of business school. Let’s say that a first-year post-MBA associate is paid about market rates for a Wall Street firm, taking home $105,000 in salary and $175,000 in bonus. Like Frank, we’ll assume he’s generous, and gives $10,000 a year to charity.

The biggest tax effect comes from Obama's plans to end the social-security tax cap. Current law caps social security taxes at $102,000. Obama plans to abolish this, meaning the full salary and bonus will be subject to social security taxes. That adds several thousands of dollars to the associate's tax bill.

As Frank notes, that’s not the only place associates will feel the higher tax bill. They’ll likely feel it in smaller bonuses as well. Social-security taxes are not only on employees. The government also charges 6.2% to employers that employees never see on their W-2s. But, of course, their employers noticed this hit and it shows up in compensation costs on balance sheets that shareholders will see too. Even if we assume that employers are willing to swallow half of the extra cost of uncapped social security taxes, the bonus for the associate will decline by around $5000.

The overall effect of Obama's tax hikes is breathtaking. The first year associate’s marginal tax rate goes up from an already ridiculous 42.5% to 51.4%—not including the new 6.2% marginal tax on the employer. Add in the effects on the bonus, and the associate is losing nearly $20,000/year in take-home pay.

Frank has helpfully added a third column to his chart: how big a pay cut would you have to take to receive the same take-home income? The answer is that Obama’s tax increases have a bigger effect on your income than a Wall Street firm cutting New York salaries by $34,000.

See the effect charted after the jump.

Comments

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 8:55AM

Before the socialists jump all over the place let me preempt a few of their standard arguments.

Myth 1: Payroll/FICO/SS Taxes are regressive.

Reality: Not at all. The payouts for SS post-retirement are inversely indexed to income in the final years. So people with higher salaries (at the time of contribution) will most probably get very little whereas people lower down will get back more than they paid in.

Second, people higher up the ladder and not very likely to utilize the govt provide medical facilities whereas people down below will survive on them.

So in net, the upper cap was put in place to sort of reflect this very same thing. The FICA tax is not really a fee but a payment for future benefits. However, not it will become a pure tax becuase the higher income folks will pay in to entirely subsidize the lower income folks.

Socialism at work. And instead of fixing a completely broken system - the Hope Pope has decided to take the easy way out, to just tax more people. Amazing 'change' - something no other socialist could have dreamt up!

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:01AM

Wall St analysts to pay higher taxes under Democratic leadership. Also in the news today, water is wet.

Tell us something we don't know.. This guy is preaching to the choir.


Now if only the tri-state area wasn't already going to be a landslide victory for the Dem ticket, our McCain votes wouldn't be throw aways.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:05AM

Ha! If you neo-cons and Repubs hadn't put an idiot into office like Bush the second, you wouldn't be whining like you are now. Man up and accept your fate.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:06AM


Perhaps this analysis and the emerging "NAFTAGate" will finally put some chinks in the "Messiah"'s armor.

-- Anon4Life

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:07AM

Lets say a person is in some financial trouble. Typically there are three way out.
1) Cut spending
2) Take on more debt
3) Get more money out of employers/ customers etc.

Typically the route is 1 -> 2 -> 3, given that (3) is very difficult to do, especially in a lawful way.

However, when it comes to a 'progressive' govt, the order is reversed. All the more becaue (3) is so easy to pull off. I am sure if I could throw my employer into jail for not paying me more, I would also keep doing that!

I understand all the 'hipsters' and unemployed idiots rooting for the messiah of change because he promises outright socialist ideas for everything. I am a little more confounded at support from some other quarters (eg. Wall Street). Socialists of his kind hate the guts of Wall Street and would probably do away with it if possible. If it is just extortion money being paid out, then I understand. If not - well I guess people deserve the pain they are up for.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:08AM

A) Spell his name right.

B) Awww. Tax hikes on i-bankers. The humanity!

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:09AM

Has everyone read Buffett's letter to stockholders this year? He took a nice shit on the MBA community in his own Nebraska-style homespun way we are all so fond of. Of course, he was correct in his assessment given recent high IQ blunderings in the financial world.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:12AM

United States Senators are very, very fond of money and people who possess a lot of it. Guest@9:07, when do you get out of grad school and are the Young Republicans hosting a torch lit book burning for you when you do (Brown shirt required)?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:17AM

There's a difference between not being an extreme supply side crank and being a socialist.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:21AM

Guest@9:12:

Breaking out the Nazi reference this early, eh? And only 8 comments in. You must really not have anything worthwhile to say.

On a related note, Carney, be prepared for a lot of "Carney, you're an idiot," "Carney you fool" comments from some of the lefties hanging around here who can't stand to be confronted with the fact that their man will raise their taxes.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 9:26AM

@9:21

We lefties like our taxes, why would we be offended by someone pointing out that Obama will raise taxes?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:36AM

Your naive if you think McCain will stick to his outlined plan. Either way, taxes have to increase because of nearly a decade of fiscal irresponsbility in Washington. Without investments in education, technology, and infrastructure, the US will be on the losing end of global competition. Besides, OBama's economic advisor is Goolbee while McCain gets his economic advice from the autobiography of a sycophant.

Posted by Cov Lite, Mar 04, 2008 9:38AM

I told you guys you should've voted for Dr. Representative Ron Paul en masse. Now look where we are.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:38AM

How about some ideas on how to fund those tax cuts? Your man Bush hasn't come up with any yet, and its almost eight years now.

I would start maybe with the Iraq war, which has questionable strategic value and seems to be at this point largely a boondoggle for contractors like Blackhawk. Oh wait, the oil money, when it started pumping, was supposed to pay for that......

That why folks your R's are history. You had yr chance and fucked up really good. See 9:05 - I couldn't agree more.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:40AM

Slick Willy Clinton raised taxes 1% on "the rich" and Wall Street soon made fortunes because Joe Sixpack believed that the country was "balanced". Joe and his wife, Jenny Craig Sixpack, went on a huge spending spree after that.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:41AM

Why do you lefties think that the government is being more efficient/responsible with your money than you would yourself? It amazes me. The US gov is the most inefficient business in the history of the world and socialists (Obama and the like) want to keep feeding it...

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:42AM

No surprise the fin guys accept the reality of Obama's plans. It was funny to see the lawyers freak out over at ATL when Frank first posted his article.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:47AM

sure sounds like a high price to pay to have Jimmy Carter II as president...

Posted by girl, Mar 04, 2008 9:56AM

Dear sir,

I hate to state the obvious, but this article panders to an audience that votes with their tax dollars because they lack the intellect or social sense to judge their politicians by any other means.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:56AM

So utterly unqualified young people making six-figures right out of college (which their parents paid for) for the privilege of screwing over customers and corporate clients will be taking home a little less than before? Boo fucking hoo, Carney.

Posted by Ruthlessgravity, Mar 04, 2008 9:58AM

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 9:41AM

Ask anyone on a fixed income if government is efficient or not. As much as the right likes to bully social security, it is one of the best run social programs in the world (the checks get delivered on time). The problem is politicians keeps looting the trust fund. Government can spread fixed cost amongst a larger base of people to create the social safety nets that encourage risk taking.

Posted by miami, Mar 04, 2008 9:59AM

This should end the debate right here, showing that tax cuts more than pay for themselves, just like Clinton's did:

CBO predictions of Tax Revenue in August 2003, post the passing of tax cuts, [note the 1-yr lag before things really get going, economy-wise]:

In $Billions 2004 2005 2006 2007*

Predicted $1,825 $2,064 $2,276 $2,421

Actual $1,850 $2,153 $2,407 $2,672 Total

Unexpected Surplus $25 $89 $131 $251 $496bn

The 2007 figure is the estimate using 7 months of data.

The CBO was off by almost $500bn in just the past 3 years. And they projected +30% growth to begin with!

In the first 3 years of the Tax Cut, growth averaged 4%, and a record 12 quarters of 3%+ in a row.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:01AM

Random Banker @ 9:26, I call that out as a lie.

Lets see. If lefties really liked taxes (or more clearly - paying more to the govt) - how much more than the stipulated tax rate do they actually pay in as income taxes?

I mean Buffet is all pissed about his taxes being low and all but paying higher taxes is entirely voluntary and can be done by you as well as Buffet. The IRS does accept checks and money orders, you know.

So how much extra are you putting in with this year's tax return?

If you like taxes - why do you not pay higher taxes without the govt passig a law forcing you to do so along with a threat of prison if you dont?

Posted by miami, Mar 04, 2008 10:02AM

There is no trust fund.

Obviously, most are ignorant of basic government laws and bookkeeping.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:02AM

I'll give him an extra 8% if he does everything he says he will. If we get a hold of the deficit, and out of iraq, our pay will probably go up to make the difference. And, if the dollar recovers to a reasonable level to the euro, your vacation just got a lot cheaper. That's a lot of 'ifs' but there is some silver lining to getting f'd on taxes.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:03AM

I'm definitely a liberal, but this race between Hillary and Obama to see who can denounce NAFTA more is utterly retarded. I bet if you really charted where the jobs leaving the midwest have gone, a far bigger chunk has gone to east Asia than to our NAFTA neighbors. Mexico has actually be really hurt by competition from Asian exporters. I think both of them bring it up because their target audience has no understanding of trade beyond the NAFTA acronym.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 10:04AM

Here's a question I've always wondered. Is there really such a thing a government waste? I mean with money multiplier and all does it really matter if the government "wastes" money? The money is just reallocated throughout the economy.

Moving along:

The thing is we lefties, and I'll just speak for us all here. We don't care that government is inefficient in allocating money. There're certain problem that in a market economy are not effectively addressed by the market. Like say making sure old people don't have to live on cat food. Or providing education of poor children.

If you don't provide some basic things like education and opportunity then you have huge portions of the economy that no longer have sufficient incentives to work and more importantly to innovate. And, with out everyone fully participating in the economy it reduces prosperity for everyone.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:05AM

Miami - the problem with that logic is that it locks us into a massively procyclical fiscal policy. Gov revenues overshoot on the way up and undershoot on the way down. We should be running a surplus in good times and a deficit in bad times to stabilize the economy. Look at what has happened to the net US gov debt outstanding in the 8 years of the GW presidency.

Posted by RamblinWreck, Mar 04, 2008 10:09AM

Raising taxes is essentially the same thing as destroying wealth. While all the hippy leftists probably think this is a great idea, just think of what will happen to consumption and investment. Its already bad enough with gas creeping towards $4/gal and every other commodity going through the roof, that I don't want to have to pay out even more of my money to the gov. These are the same people that pay tens of thousands of dollars for toilet seats. How about getting rid of pointless bureaucracy, keepin taxes low, and giving the difference back to the people. If Joe Blow wastes it on cases of Keystone light and then can't retire, that's his problem, not mine.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 10:10AM

@ 10:01

We see taxes as a way to shape society in a manner which we find to be both superior and more equitable. Sending in more of our money to the government doesn't really serve those purposes.

If we have a specific goal we want to accomplish we donate it to a PAC and then they lobby the government to take money from you and then fix the problem. That way you get to participate too and we get more money for our cause.

Posted by Finnegan, Mar 04, 2008 10:14AM

guest@9:41AM

Why do you lefties think that the government is being more efficient/responsible with your money than you would yourself? It amazes me. The US gov is the most inefficient business in the history of the world and socialists (Obama and the like) want to keep feeding it...

While small government is probably best, allowing for more creativity/profits and possibly efficiency in the private world, I don't think it's automatic to conclude that government is necessarily less efficient in every way.

One thinks of Sprint. One thinks of Merrill. One thinks of Citibank. One thinks of Worldcom. One thinks of the disappeared corporate world of the internet bubble. One thinks of AT&T buying cable. One thinks of Countrywide. One thinks of airlines. One thinks of autos.

And keep in mind that the corporate sector gets to choose the population it serves, can vigorously inforce rules in totalitarian fashion, and largely does not allow for personal freedom. You can't be Fred the Janitor at UBS and say, "Fuck it, think today I am gonna slip into one of the trading desks and short some currencies." Governments deal with more chaos and have to work through the life choices of millions of individuals and still arrive at decent solutions.

I think the world is a more complex equation.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:16AM

Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. wrote that "In the past, when liberalism had resolved the crisis and restored tranquillity, conservatism has recovered power by the laws of political gravity; then it makes a new botch of things, and liberalism again must take over in the name of the nation." Bill Clinton restored tranquility and we had economic expansion. Then George Bush, Jr. has made a botch of it all. The liberals, either Obama or Hillary, must come in to right the ship. And how can we get this country back on track without raising revenue (taxes) and/or cutting spending? Should we keep on lowering taxes and running up a deficit? Carney, once again, not using those math skills are you?

Posted by Ruthlessgravity, Mar 04, 2008 10:16AM

@miami 10:02am

The debate over Social Security being a trust or not has little to do with government bookkeeping and instead focuses on if it counts as savings. Does contributing to social security reduce encourage government to spend more money? I would rationalize that government would borrow that money from abroad if social security did not lend it. It is an insurance policy that holds money in a trust structure for some future benefit. Bookkeeping be damn, it sounds like a trust fund to me.

Posted by Bugs Meany, Mar 04, 2008 10:22AM

@9:36

"Without investments in education, technology, and infrastructure, the US will be on the losing end of global competition."

"Investing in education" is just a euphemism for paying teachers more, but not demanding results (i.e., testing--which I'm sure Obama opposes). While Chinese and Indian kids are studying math and science and economics, ours take "queer multicultural theory" and "environmental racism" (actual courses). Obama's support comes largely from this crowd: professors, college kids and eternal grad students. He won't fix shit.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:23AM

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Obama mentioned the posibility of lifting the cap, or even introducing a "doughnut" hole a few times in the past 6-10 months. However, it is not a policy he's running on. The cap is not going anywhere anytime soon.

Posted by RamblinWreck, Mar 04, 2008 10:24AM

guest@10:16,

You seem to have forgotten about Jimmy Carter and then Ronald Reagan. You are looking at one data point, so shame on you. Other than that, Presidents are not the ones who should take full credit/blame for anything that happens with the economy. I seem to remember Congress being pretty unanimous with their vote to go to war (which I'm assuming is one of you main points with regards to Bush botching things). What about the role of the Fed? Hell, most things in the U.S. are free market. How would you like to attribute the housing bubble to Bush? I certainly wouldn't attribute the dot-com bubble to Clinton. Really, you and I have just as much, if not more, control over the actual economy than a President does.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:25AM

Bush has never cut taxes merely deferred them. Do you think what is owed magically disappears when taxes are "cut"? BTW not one cent of the Iraq war has been payed for yet.

Although since tax "cuts" more than pay for them selves I suppose if we cut taxes to 0.001% on income and eliminate all others then we'll see near infinite returns. Picture the graph of 1/x: x being the tax rate and the y axis being returns. The danger lies as we approach zero and cut too aggressively we'll get a negative tax rate and consequently owe the universe more money than has ever been issued.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:27AM

Raising taxes is essentially the same thing as destroying wealth.

No, inflation is destroying wealth. Funding various services by way of taxes is redistributing wealth. You may not like what the government uses your tax money for, but it's not like they take the cash and burn it in the back yard.

Pretty asstacular post otherwise. Though I admit it's tough to not look like a dick when you're arguing that a 25 year old should be making $180k, and that only making $160k would really suck.

Posted by RamblinWreck, Mar 04, 2008 10:33AM

The cycle of investment generates wealth, even for non-investors. For example, take the SWFs out of the equation, and you probably have even more people getting laid off, which means less people making money to put into the system, more people drawing money out of the government, thus destroying wealth of the nation as a whole. It behooves us all to allow people to make money and then invest that money. Even if it is just a savings account, that is extra capital that can then be used to allow people to start businesses, buy a home, etc. Letting the government play Robin Hood will not accomplish this.

Posted by Ruthlessgravity, Mar 04, 2008 10:36AM

@Bugs Meany

I'm all for investment in science, math, and economics education. That is what I was hinting at with that comment. The problem is how do you demand results while not making learning driven purely by a test. A stronger focus is needed on these subjects but they are also not the be all, end all. Those Chinese and Indian engineering students are great at what they do, but struggle when it comes to basic communication. That is the flip side to your argument.

I think high school kids should be forced to take statistics and economics as part of their general education.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 10:44AM

Ok I am confused. Is Random Banker being sarcastic or serious?

Random Banker @ 10:04
"Is there really such a thing a government waste? I mean with money multiplier and all does it really matter if the government "wastes" money? The money is just reallocated throughout the economy."

Are you seriously a banker? I mean
1) SO isn't that an argument for 100% taxation (is it?)
2) So everytime Bill Gates / Warren Buffet made some money - if the government took it away and 'wasted' it (gave it away to everyone equally) - would the end result be better than leaving the money with them? If paying $100,000 to a 100 random kids a better outcome than paying $10MM to hire Michael Jordon to a team?


@10:10 - "Sending in more of our money to the government doesn't really serve those purposes. If we have a specific goal we want to accomplish we donate it to a PAC"

Isn't that an argument AGAINST a tax hike (or ANY taxes at all)?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:48AM

@10:36 Too simplistic. Not everyone has an aptitude for quant disciplines. Isn't it better to cultivate people's strengths than force things like stat and econ down everyone's throat? I work in asset management. We have quants and we have people with lesser quant skills but better people skills, writing skills. Put em together and we have a great business.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 10:50AM

Ruthlessgravity @ 10:36,

"Those Chinese and Indian engineering students are great at what they do, but struggle when it comes to basic communication."

What? They have a communication problem communicating with YOU. And when the Chinese and Indian economies individually become larger than the American economy, they will not have problems communicating amongst themselves.

YOU will then neither have the technical skills NOT the communication abilities. They already require Mandarin skills to work in China. Think you have ANY communication skills in that arena?

The sad thing is that American edcuation policy is being killed by the likes of you and the liberal politicians people like you support. NY spends $12,000 a year on a kid, CT spends I think $14,000. I am guessing that India and China spend a fraction as much.

Yet all that is being produced here is a bunch of useless workers with no technical skills to compete in the global arena. But of course - the teachers unions are getting paid (+ for the liberals) and a bunch of useless and future unemployed youth are entering the workforce (big + for the liberals.)

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 10:52AM

Fact of the matter is that there are a lot of liberals on Wall Street and in other highly capitalistic, competitive industries. Most mainstream democrats, including Obama and Clinton, are not "socialists" even though their rhetoric on the campaign trail often seems so (it's called throwing read meat to your audience). Obama will likely raise taxes, but remember, the Republicans of the past 8 years simply lowered taxes and borrowed, pushing tax collection out to future years. Certain things have to be funded, social security needs to be shored up, I'd like to see more spending on infrastructure and education, etc., these will require higher taxes. Now these aren't laffer curve violating high taxes, just a few incremental percentage points. And to be honest, few Americans can afford it more than single bankers and traders in their mid 20's.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:00AM

Guest@10:16:

Well Carney, here's the opening salvo on the "you're so dumb" argument--a slight on math skills.

OK, Guest@10:16, rather than quoting a self-satisfying quote from Schlesinger, please present us why Carney's analysis above re: the tax plans is incorrect. Not a discussion about the merits of the plans (see above for that) but computationally (read: math skills) why Carney is wrong.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 11:11AM

Matt_m:

I agree with you entirely. The question is what do you do about it? The reason the teacher's unions dominate the profession of teaching is because teaching is an underpaid profession relative to the potential value can add. In a society where 52% of the population goes to college but graduate without any discernible skills teaching has become the equivalent of what being a UAW job used to be. Add on top of that that students in wealthy municipalities receive far more resources than students in poor neighborhoods and you have a recipe for disaster.

So the question is what can be done about it? My liberal instincts say nationalize the whole thing. Institute very strict standardized testing comparable to what is require in Norway or India. Forget computers and field trips and all that shit just drill the shit out of basic technical skills. Now you will crush the spirit of generations of writers and artists that will never be. But you will save the nation.

I don't see a free market solution to this problem because the people with least means are the ones in most need of additional resources. If someone can fucking explain to me a free market way to provide quality education to poor people then I'm all for. But i'm yet to hear one.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:18AM

Ramdom @11:14 Did you already forget the piece yesterday on Schwartzman's gift to the Inner City Scholarship Fund? That's essentially a mechanism for extending private education (which is privatizerd education) down the food chain to poorer people.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:21AM

11:18 again That said, I suspect the success of such programs is due in large part to the fact that they cherry pick enough to weed out the troublemakers. I'm afraid there is a core of kids that just are not up for learning. Isolating them so that they can't taint the rest of em though is a step in the right direction. The fact that you cant do that easily in the public school environement is a contributor to the sorry state of public education.

Posted by RamblinWreck, Mar 04, 2008 11:25AM

Random:

Do like they do in other countries and instead of giving the $12,000 of federal money to the school, give it to the family and allow the family to chose the school. That creates accountability on the part of the schools/teachers. It doesn't get more free market than that, and its been working in those other countries.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 11:28AM

@Matt_m:

Are you on crack? You didn't actually answer my question you illiterate little monkey. My question is merely an academic one. Given the money multiplier, is it possible for a government to "waste" money. Now clearly at 100% taxes this discourages ecconomic participation because incetives are not alligned, so no it is not an argument for 100% taxes.

But since the money just goes back into the economy do the misadventure of government spending really make any difference economically?

If you wanted to make an argument that the government has no business setting a minimum wage because that is inefficient and destroys wealth? Fine, I'm with you. But you haven't actually said shit.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:32AM

My children go to private school, which costs around $25,000 per year all-in. And its a fairly hardscrabble place - nothing fancy, resources devoted to teaching. Why do you think a quality education can be bought for $12,000? That model works when nuns, who earn nothing, do the teaching. There are no more nuns.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 11:39AM

11:32

Private school, like everything else, is typically a lot more expensive in New York than everywhere else. While your kids school may be no frills, that's the same price people pay for Collegiate or Trinity or where ever. I think $12K would probably work in most of the country.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:41AM

Random Banker @10:11

" If someone can fucking explain to me a free market way to provide quality education to poor people then I'm all for. But i'm yet to hear one. "

You have heard of it (or at least a version of it). It is called a voucher program and school choice. You are not 'nationalizing' education but at the same time giving people the means to get it. Dismantle the entire public education system and instead give the money to the people to spend on education. Let the private sector set up the schools.

Not surprisingly, liberals are completely up in arms against this move (using highly questionable logic).

"Institute very strict standardized testing comparable to what is require in Norway or India. Now you will crush the spirit of generations of writers and artists that will never be"

If you approach everything with a pre-concieved notion, then you are right - you will never see any fucking idea. Last I checked, Chinna, India and Norway were not desolate lands run by machines devoid of any arts/sports or culture. Also, I find it difficult to attribute the presence of a lot of artistic talent to the American public schooling system. I think somehow - to obfuscate the filure of the stytem - the 'arts and culture' aspect is highlited. Given that these are not easily measurable (on the likes of economic output etc), they are very convenient crutched to rely.

Posted by RamblinWreck, Mar 04, 2008 11:43AM

Contrary to popular belief, not all public schools are shit. The way it is now, you can't go to a certain school unless you live in that district. The $12,000 (or whatever number it is) would allow mobility between public schools and give successful schools better/more resources and act as an incentive to provide better education. Since when does it make sense to give pay regardless of performance (ex. CEOs)? If you want to send your kid to private school, that is your choice, thus you can't complain about how much it costs for a fairly "hardscrabble" environment. Besides, I'm not saying that is an absolute solution, just offering Random a currently used free-market solution to provide better education to everyone.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 11:52AM

ramblin: Where do you see me complaining about the $25,000? I'm just throwing out that figure to demonstrate that your $12,000 number is totally unrealistic. Those that support vouchers use free market retoric but their real objective is gutting the amount of money spent on education. The only people willing to educate a child for $12,000 a year are religious nut cases, who see it as a small price to pay for indoctrinating the next generation of believers.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 11:53AM

11:41:

Maybe. I could get on board with a voucher program of some sort. You'd need to give people a lot more money than what I've heard so far. And there aren't nearly enough schools to handle that many students. If we gave everyone say $18k per student or so i could get behind that sort of a program.

I don't think liberals are opposed to vouchers in principal. democrats have a problem with it because of the teachers unions. but i don't think the liberal movement is opposed to vouchers.

Posted by Ruthlessgravity, Mar 04, 2008 12:05PM

@Matt_m,

First, I'm a centrist.

Second, English is a language specifically evolved to facilitate commerce, Mandarin is not. China does not have a uniform language. Mandarin is a mesh of different dialects. China still has a lot of different languages that are native to certain regions of the country.


Third, China's economy might exceed the size of the US economy sometime in the next 40-50 years. In order for that to happen, they will most likely face a civil war because of the divergent interest of the economic libreals and the communist party. Hard to be the world's economic superpower when your currency doesn't float and 2/3s of your population is rural farmers. China and Indian suffer from the same ills they did in the 80s. They are great at taking an idea and replicating it. They have no proven themselves when it comes to greenfielding innovation. The main driver of their economies is taking industries that already exist and doing the work cheaper....not a characteristic of a global economic superpower.

Fourth, $12K per year per child is not a lot of money. Think of everything that is reuqired to be competitive in an information based economy. Now compare that to the philosophy we utilize to teach kids. The model for teaching kids today stems back to concepts developed during the industrial revolution. The basic design for a school is stolen from a 1800s era factory. FYI, of course China and India spend less per child. They have a lower cost basis to provide education.

Fifth, technical skills are very important but if you can't clearly and effectively communicate the conclusion the skills have led you to then you've wasted your time. The one complaint I've heard is that Chinese and Indian education doesn't stress how to effectively communicate this information.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:10PM

that's a funny article...I love the narrow scope of the article, and I mean that in a completely sarcastic manner. As if all a Wall Street employee cares about is his taxes? Some might believe that the cost of a better future for this country is an extra 5000 out of their paycheck. Get over it.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:17PM

A Post-Grad making 285K 1st yr can't afford an increase in taxes? Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Life's a beach and then you up and die! Assuming the person can manage money at all after a Post-grad degree, why would you need to draw social security at all after you retire at age 68? You should have 44 years of savings and investments compounded to the tune of several million. As another commenter stated "man-up" and live the American dream!

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:19PM

@12:10,

If 'Some might believe that the cost of a better future for this country is an extra 5000 out of their paycheck', then absolutely NOTHING is preventing them from paying that $5000 into the treasury.

On the other hand, some others may believe that this extra $5000 is a fraud being perperuated on the country to forward a discredited socialist economy and is to the long term detriment of the country.

So why not let things be? Let the first group voluuntarily keep paying and let the second group not keep paying. This outcome is completely feasible given the current tax structure.

Then why HIKE THE TAXES?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:24PM

@12:17, it is not about who can 'afford' but rather what right YOU have to someone else's money?

If someone is earning legally - no matter what amount - then why should YOU have a right to (an increasingly larger) share of it?

By that 'man-up' argument, why should anyone even get $70k when someone is earning $5k? By that logic, we should have all income fully redistributed (WARNING: The communists tried it and that didn't quite work out so well).

Also, lets take the boo-hoo-hoo-hoo argument further. The govt spent $12,000 a year on your education, gave you food stamps, free healthcare as a kid and you still need to depend on other people's income to lead your life and keep your centrally-heated 2 bedroom subprime mortgaged house? Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo. 100's of millions of people are dying in the world without food. You are much better. 'Man-up' and take responsibility for your own life instead of begging from money from others!

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:27PM

I never comment on boards and it is against my firms policy actually, but i have to respond to what randombanker said earlier about government waste. She asked if government waste was even possible, since when the government spends money somebody gets it. This is a corrolary of the "broken window theory" which says that if you break a window you arent hurting the economy because the window is replaced, the window fixer gets money, spends it, etc. The theory is ridiculous because it ignores the opportunity cost of the dollar spent. For instance, if the government takes a dollar from you and spends it on digging a ditch on the side of the road it does create economic activity, but not as much as it would in private hands because free markets allocate capital more efficiently (on balance). In the long run the economy expands due to technological advance and innovation, which improves standards of living. A dollar spent on a "bride to nowhere" by the Federal government is far less likely to create innovation then a dollar left in the hands of an individual. This is also why the economy is not stimulated through war...in fact we pay a tremendous price for wars and other government waste due to the opportunity cost of building bombs, tanks, etc.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 12:27PM

@ 11:32

I graduated HS in 2000 from a private school in Michigan. My parents paid about $7K per year for that education. The local public schools got about $8.5K per student from the state. Every year the paper would print average ACT scores, college acceptance rates, MEAP rates, etc for all the schools (ours included, as the school gave out that data). We (the private school kids) absolutely kicked the asses of the public school kids. Every year. And it wasn't close. And my school wasn't parochial - we weren't run by nuns or anything.

I firmly believe it would be a better system to give every family a voucher for each kid, and let them choose which school they want their kids to attend. Costs can be adjusted by market. You have to create competition between the schools. Oh, and end tenure, too, while we're at it. What a crock.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 12:43PM

@ Random Banker 11:28 - "Given the money multiplier, is it possible for a government to "waste" money."

YES! Even if you take 50% of the money from a productive person and distributre is amongst the non-productive ones, it is a 'waste', notwithstanding the multiplier effects - which are based on Keynesian theories and have been mostly discredited wrt long term impact on the economy.

Posted by anyname, Mar 04, 2008 12:43PM

If you are one who votes Obama into the White House by 20ll when you can't find your ass without a map, remember you were told today March 4, 2008 by "Anyname" you will deserve the great "Mana from Heaven" YOU ARE NOT GETTING.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 12:55PM

@11:52 said - "The only people willing to educate a child for $12,000 a year are religious nut cases, who see it as a small price to pay for indoctrinating the next generation of believers. "

And there you see the logic.

First of all - patently untrue except for in union circles.

Second, aren't the kids actually being currently indoctrinated into a socialist philosophy BY socialist AT the taxpayers expense? How can teachers who do not believe in pay for performance, believe in tenure, believe in no secret ballot elections and are OVERWHELMINGLY politically partisan teach student anything else?

And lets dissect your logic. So if tomorrow the govt takes ALL the money it spends on education and gives it out to the parents in the form of vouchers, the TOTAL spending on education does not go down.

Now the same public school teachers can set up their own schools and attract students to it. Given that the govt spending is still the same, they should get paid the same!

So why are they opposed to it? If parents chose to indoctrinate their kids religiously - ITS A FREE COUNTRY!! But isnt that just an illogical scare tactic.

But that aside, getting back on topic - Barack Obama is not on the side of the kids or the tax payers. He is on the side of the teachers unions. And yet - 'liberals' support him on education(even though they claim that they are NOT on the side of the unions).

Go figure.

Posted by Random Banker, Mar 04, 2008 1:18PM

Uhhh Matt. The money multiplier has not be discredited its the basic element of monetary policies. Keynsian economics has be discredited, to some degree as an instrument of FISCAL policy. Again you're conflating separate issues. I didn't say anything about what the government did with its "wasted money". Lets say they build a bridge in Alaska that serves no real purpose. They have to employ architects, construction workers, buy steel, concrete, other materials. In turn the architect buys himself a new M3 (built in south carolina) the construction worker buys his wife a new F150 pick up and the steel manufacture uses the proceeds to refurbish its physical plant. The money recirculates through out the economy.

I'm not arguing this is more beneficial to the economy than private sector spending as Keynes did (and he only argued when the private sector was unwilling or unable to do so). I am simply saying that it is not a "waste of money" its impossible to "waste" money from a macro perspective as far as I can understand it.

The thing the government must not do is create structural inefficiencies by creating price ceilings and floors.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 1:22PM

@12:27 Your school was able to educate people for $1,500 less and have better outcomes because they preselected the students and avoided the ones that would present a challenge. A luxury that the local school didn't have. Simple as that. Hope your general inability to connect dots is not impacting your career on Wall Street.

Posted by Bugs Meany, Mar 04, 2008 1:36PM

Random Banker: read through the federal budget. All of it. Spending taxpayer money on PEANUT BUTTER RESEARCH is a waste, no matter where the money eventually winds up.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 1:37PM

...random banker again u are missing the opportunity cost. The money spent on the bridge may allow the bridge builder to buy an M3 but that same dollar spent by individuals would create MORE wealth. If you don't believe that then you don't believe in free markets and u believe in a command economy. Every dollar spent by the government and not allocated by the free market costs the overall economy some amount of welath.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 1:37PM

@ 1:22

Actually, no, it didn't. It wasn't a prep school and they took everyone from many backgrounds. But I'm amazed you know so much, since I didn't even name it. You must be quite omniscient. Hope that's not impacting your career on Wall Street.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that giving every kid a voucher, even if you let them choose the local public school which could easily still be run much as they are now, is simply a better way of designing the system. Do that and the public schools would have to adjust to keep up, and that would mean things like (gasp!) merit pay and the end of tenure.

I just laugh when a Democrat says that they don't like the teacher's unions. If no Democrats actually cared for the unions, then the unions would have no power.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 1:40PM

@ 12:27

7K a year for private school? dude, that's a fucking orphanage.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 1:44PM

Lets say that it is a 'relative waste of money' - a waste nonetheless.

If the return on an investment is 10% and the hurdle rate is 12%, then yes, there was 'return' on the investment but in net - it was wasted money.

Similarly, for government to first take away money in the form of tax and then spend it (on ANYTHING) assumes that the return on the govt spending is higher than the return on the provate spending (the hurdle rate here).

Historical evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

If the bridge was really required, private enterprise would have sunk money into it. The 'waste' here is that instead of probably investing that money in lets say schooling of children (through vouchers), the govt decided to spend on building a bridge.

THAT, is wasted money (relatively, not doubt).

But then again, I am unaware of any sitation where you do not call an investment a loss if your funding cost was higher than your return!

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:04PM

@1:37 You sound like quite an asshole for someone that's only 26. Are you able to get dates?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:08PM

I was thinking the same thing. This guy with the $7,000 HS education sounds like a typical college Republican. Both ernest and naive at the same time.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:17PM

There are no silver bullets but vouchers and ending the union monopoly are a step in the right direction.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:34PM

@ 2:04

An asshole? Sure, why not. If you haven't noticed, girls like assholes.


@ 2:08

All of us non-Socialists are just naive, right? Continue dreaming of the Francification of the U.S.

My reason for the tuition talk was to address the point earlier that private schools only work when they cost $25K. But that's not true if you look outside NYC.

Oh well, Barack's going to lose anyway, so the hippies will have to continue to dream of how they can steal even more of other people's money.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:45PM

I agree with you 100%, even though you grew up in an orphanage.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 2:53PM

"ending the union monopoly"... The implication is that the evil teachers union is plotting to poorly educate our children while lining their own pockets. I know more than a few teachers and don't see that at all. What I see are people that are not real highly paid having problems dumped on them that are the result of unfortunate trends in society as a whole.

I agree that vouchers can be a step in the right direction. Implementation though is not as easy as putting them in the mail. Consider that without a lot of regulation in the form of policing schools and enforcing standards they would be would be subject to lots of abuse (see the outsourcing of a large part of the non-combat operations in Iraq, which resulted in literally billions being unaccounted for). In addition, the existing public school infrastructure is a fixed cost that the taxpayer needs to cover whether or not those schools are filled.

Posted by Matt_m, Mar 04, 2008 3:15PM

@2:53,

Policing the schools is easy! You are entrusting the parents with policing them! You are giving the money to the parents! If parents are not capable of monitoring their child's schooling then I guess we have bigger issues here.

Secondly, the schooling infrastructure can be easily auctioned off. That is what MANY countries with command and control economies have been doing since they have opened up. Once again, non-issue.

And as far as the comment on dedicated teachers is concerned - I see no relationship between being a dedicated teacher and union-membership! Dedicated teachers will continue to be hired in the private sector and if anything, they will be rewarded for their dedication (unlike union run no-pay for better teachers).

Once again, the union supporters seem to be grasping for the straws to justify why schools should be run by the government instead of giving the money directly to the parents. There hasn't been one solid argument for.

Posted by Lowly Assistant, Mar 04, 2008 3:29PM

@2:34,

Not parochial? International School? Had to be parochial. Brother Rice? UofD? Catholic Central?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 3:47PM

Matt: if I was your son I wouldn't want an idiot like you policing my school.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 3:52PM

It is very amusing to see these kinds of screeds on the excessive and unjust tax burdens that Wall Street may face during an Obama presidency surrounded by posts about how thousands of your friends on Wall Street are being laid off (including top executives), Citigroup writing down billions, etc as the subprime house of cards continues to come down.

Last time I checked, the after-tax income of a laid-off employee was zero. Clearly, Wall Street needs a squad of babysitters to keep it from repeating mistakes along the lines of subprime, and higher taxes on these bankers' ludicrously high incomes (relative to the value they are, ahem, creating for the economy) will help pay for it.

You seem to like coming off as post-ideological in your criticism of just about everything, but your delusional world view is laid bare -- grating, uninformed, pathetic -- in posts like these.

For more on Obama's Wall Street-friendly positions, check out subPrimer.org.

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 4:03PM

touche 3:52 I might add that I feel like we may have been duped with the sudden turn to political themes at DB. I noticed yesterday that it coincided with the appearance of political ads. Were those inflamatory articles first about Michelle Obama and then about Barak a way to goose traffic in order to justifying to the RNC the wisdom of placing ads here?

Posted by guest, Mar 04, 2008 4:41PM

Grandpa (granny?) @ 3:52,

Please go back to posting with your socialist buddies here http://www.nytimes.com

I understand that at your age when you cannot argue anything out with some logic, you resort to shaking your head and waving your cane. Never mind, you can still keep raiding out salaries to provide medicine and food to you because you were too busy spending YOUR salary on pot instead of saving it for your own future.

I know it must sad for you to feel like a thief at your age - threatening us with jail if we dont pay up for you but thats fine. Consider that one to be on us.

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 12:35AM

Raising taxes is inevitable, and will happen even if McCain gets elected. Well done in making a few dumb bankers a little more foolhardy with their votes, Carney.

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 12:38AM

"We lefties like our taxes, why would we be offended by someone pointing out that Obama will raise taxes?"

Someone please point out ONE high-paid leftist-moron politician (sorry for the redundancy) WHO GAVE BACK THEIR BUSH TAX BREAK.

Lets make it easier - point out ANYONE who gave back their Bush tax break.

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 1:25PM

Suggestion for those on the right:

Cut the defense budget...in half.

$600b x 50%.

There's your tax cut.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1941

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 1:36PM

1:25 Interesting, isn't it, that the right never considers cutting the defense budget, which is such a big part of total outlays. They would have you believe that any cuts would come out of the hides of hard working enlisted men and women or result in a security breakdown. The reality though is that the military is a huge bureaucracy, and could probably stand as much or maybe more pruning as any of the other wasteful government departments that they rail on and on about.

Posted by GinNTonic, Mar 05, 2008 9:28PM

1:36. Righties and many libertarians like the defense budget as is since it's an economic "common good." We are fine with supporting police, fire depts, roads/bridges, because those are common goods. Pork barrel projects and entitlements are not common goods, therefore most people don't support them.

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 9:42PM

gin: 1:36 here. My point was that you righties refuse to distinguish between quality and non quality military spending. I'll buy the argument that the military is a common good. There are however signifiant pork barrel and entitlement elements to it. Pork would be bases that are obsolete and should be closed, but are the pet project of the local congressman. Entitlement in the form of bloated non combat force payrolls, including very generous retirement benefits.

Posted by guest, Mar 05, 2008 11:18PM

Guest @ 1:25

I got a better idea...cut "mandatory" social spending...in half:

1.5 Trillion x 50% = $750 billion

A year and a half of that and no more national debt.

Wait, I got an even better idea...get rid of 90%+ of our bloated, corrupt federal government and give the power states. Wow! Why didn't somebody ever think of this before...

Posted by guest, Mar 06, 2008 12:03AM

Today the govt lifted agency limits for CA loans all the way to 729k.

Get this, this is to help out SUBPRIME dudes who took out loans north of 600k! Instead of whipping these people in public for being shameless enough to actual come begging / demanding money from others the govt is bailing them out. Oh socialism. I am absolutely certain that I earn more than 95% of all the subprime folks who were proud 'homeowners' taking the tax deduction and waiting for the house to appreciate to make a quick buck without cap gains (while of course cashing in on the equity all along). And I still rent.

And now the liberals want to take my tax money to help those 'poor people' out. And in the process keep the housing market artificially inflated while also pushing overall mortgage rates up - so that when people like me come into the housing market, they have to take one up the ass.

Bravo liberals.

Posted by GinNTonic, Mar 06, 2008 1:33PM

@9:42, unfortuantely with politics being as it is, the BS military spending is jumbled with important military spending. So when a congressmen or senator votes against pork barrel military spending, it's publicized by either the media or political opponent as "being against the military."

Posted by guest, Mar 07, 2008 11:55PM

I fucking hate liberals. They make me sputter with rage.

Posted by guest, Mar 26, 2008 10:41AM

i expect more from you carney.

Posted by guest, Jun 27, 2008 1:20PM

Our government needs to cut costs and increase efficiency. Not raise taxes. The reason our debt goes up every year is because we are dumb enough to give them more and more money. Enough is enough. Obama has mentioned tax plans that would raise some people's total tax costs to nearly 60% of their income. I don't care how much you make, that is too much. And to the idiot guest who said...
"So utterly unqualified young people making six-figures right out of college (which their parents paid for) for the privilege of screwing over customers and corporate clients will be taking home a little less than before? Boo fucking hoo, Carney."
You are the problem with America! Not every successful person is "unqualified", in fact, most are highly qualified - thats why they make six figures. And not all rich people "screw over their customers and corporate clients." If they did, they wouldn't be in business. I am so sick of the liberal wining. NOT ALL RICH PEOPLE ARE EVIL. In fact, they pay for all of your socialist plans.
Just admit you are jeolous of their success and stop blaming them for all of your problems. I swear....Liberals just want to punish people for success. Let me guess Carney - you probably don't have a college degree and now can't find work....well I guess thats rich peoples fault.....get a degree and stop stealing from the rich....your not Robin Hood and neither is Obama. If you want to be successful, stop looking for a handout.

Our country is Capitalist one- not socialist.....Profits are not evil, they make our system run. Taxes ruin profits - its just that simple. Not to mention the fact that he wants to double the capital gains. Yet, history shows that raising the capital gains actual decreases overall tax revenue because it kills growth. Lowering the capital gains tax and income tax has been proven (every single time) to actually increase gov. tax revenue. So if you want our gov. to have more money - lower taxes - don't raise them.

Post Your Comment