Morgan Stanley is said to be cutting back on its b-school tuition reimbursement, from 100 percent to 10k a year. "Sucks for those of us working through 10k/quarter part-time programs," said our tipster who just wants to learn, damn it. "This sets me back 50k or so. There goes the last of my loyalty to the company."
This Is The First In A Series Of Anti-Knowledge Initiatives That Will Culminate In Hiring First Years Who Can't Read
Posted by Bess Levin, Jun 24, 2008, 3:56pm
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Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:14PM
gee what a pity. some people pay for their own educations.
get real, lightweights. what do you bring to the table?
if you nourish at the corporate teat, you'll always be a corporate spawn.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:24PM
you should have thought about going full time before you amassed that huge family without real career goals to support them...
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:27PM
@4:24 this isn't about persky, genius.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 24, 2008 4:30PM
full time mba @ top-10 school (2008 admission): $70k+/year. Columbia/NYC will likely cost you over $150k once you add in realistic expenses.
Thats a helluva lot of loans to take on (esp if you've got undergrad loans) if you don't have a company/family/printing press of a job to pay for the MBA/etc...
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:31PM
4:30
who cares
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:33PM
@4:27
why do most people who go to b-school choose part-time? because they decided late in the game that they needed/wanted an MBA but can't quit their job for a full-time program as they have multiple mouths to feed.
I wasn't referring to persky, whiz kid.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:33PM
University of Miami (FL) one year program here they come!!
(or Michigan)
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:35PM
Get over yourselves! Law students pay a heck more than you MBAs with zero prospect of having a shop pay tuition (absent getting a degree in Tax), and MBAs make more money.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:36PM
We need to dumb-down investment banking. Then IBs would lose only half a trillion instead of a trillion.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:38PM
That University of Miami MBA program is a joke. That school is only good if your fluent in Spanish, and you can get a job at national companies Latin America headquarters down there. Can't beat the weather though...
Your best bet is a solid 2 yr program or a part-time one at a major city MBA
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 4:39PM
My employer is interviewing a recent grad from Oklahoma State for a first year analyst job next week! You don't want to hear what the boss said about the IV League.
Posted by beentheredonethat , Jun 24, 2008 4:45PM
@4:39 I most certainly do want to know.....waiting with bated breath....
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 24, 2008 5:00PM
@ 4:33
Uh, not all people who do part-time MBA's (esp while still in their 20's) have "multiple mouths to feed". See my prior comment re: cost, which doesnt' even consider the opportunity cost of taking 2 years off.
Law students, I feel for you, too.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:00PM
I don't understand why anyone would consider a part-time MBA. It doesn't do much for your career, and no one really respects it. It doesn't allow you the same networking opportunities as full-time (not enough occassions/chances for bonding), the education is so drawn out over 3-4 years that nothing connects, and everyone is so tired from the day's work no one learns anything or works well together (see networking). After you graduate, you go back to your same job, maybe a slight pay raise, but that's it. The education system should ban executive MBA's and part-time MBA's because they essentially offer little but a diploma to hang on the wall.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:07PM
@5:00
You need to get out more.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:07PM
Yeah, but the exec and part-time MBA's are extremely lucrative for the b-schools, so they aren't going anywhere.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:11PM
anal_yst:
who is still in their 20's and decides to get a part-time mba? clearly someone who couldn't get into a decent full-time program?
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:12PM
anal_yst:
who is still in their 20's and decides to get a part-time mba? clearly someone who couldn't get into a decent full-time program?
Posted by Investorcluzo , Jun 24, 2008 5:13PM
@4:33 - the majority of people at the "top tier" schools go full time (you decide what top tier is), not to be confused with exec-ed programs mentioned by @5:07. and yes they are lucrative (my school sends me info on its program which is $50k for a few weekends).
the folks going part time/night are typically older workers looking to move up in their respective firms. full timers are usually the 20/young 30 somethings looking to switch careers. I can safely say that those folks have a little more difficult time breaking into investment banking (and you don't need an MBA to work in sales/trading).
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 24, 2008 5:14PM
@ 511/512 - just playing devil's advocate here, the cost difference is a big deciding factor for alot of people. God knows, I'd shoot myself havin to sit through some boring class/homework after work!
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:15PM
@ 5:00
If you are going for 3-4 years, wouldn't you have more opportunities for networking? Did nothing from high school connect for you because it was drawn out over 3-4 years? Does everyone leave work at 6:00 because after that no one can see to work well together? Couldn't you change jobs after you graduate? Great logic there.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:21PM
@5:00
Knew a couple guys that got the P-T MBA and the careers are actually moving quickly. Networking is fine but I don't need to bond. If your charismatic enough you'll make plenty of contacts inside and outside of class. Plenty of people go fulltime and get low figures when they get out because of a lack of experience. If your making good money already why leave?
As far as law school I know a couple attorneys and they all said the same thing. If they had some law firm experience it might have made their getting a gig alot easier.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:28PM
@4:53, every single 1st year lawyer that workers for a top tier firm makes the same amount, as do all the 2nd years, etc... For some reason your field has chosen a communist/union type of mentality whereby being the best doesn't get rewarded. All you really need to do once you land a job is just bill hours. Not that billing hours isn't hard, but all you need to do is work a lot. In finance just putting in hours guarantees nothing. As a result law is a very low risk field, thus the returns aren't as great.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 5:30PM
sukkaas don need no educatoin. MBA'z for fagz.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 6:06PM
Part-time MBA? Excuse me, does anyone take them seriously at all? You must be kidding (unless you live in Canada or some butt-fuck Kansas village).
Posted by Master of None , Jun 24, 2008 6:35PM
What, no internal memo? At least when they cut the taxi reimbursements they were up-front about it.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 7:12PM
Part time MBAs are worthless? Yea right. If you want the degree and future salary protection but not the hassle of taking two years off (not to mention losing the hundreds of thousands in wages) you go part time. Work pays for part or all of it and at the end of the day my degree says the same thing as a full timer. "Waaaaahhhh, but I went full time, I should get the job" Get over yourselves.
It can be done in two years with the right discipline.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 7:42PM
The comments against PT MBA's sound like they came from some community college bound 19 yr olds from Newark,who normally can be found behind the booth in the local Exxon.It's just the envy tawkin'!
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 7:54PM
naah, MBA is all about branding, and no decent MBA program offers a part-time program. executive MBA, yes, that's hot. part-time MBA: butt-fuck Kansas.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 8:00PM
I think it's funny that the douchebags making fun of part vs full time are the same (cock)suckers that are getting pink slips at Citi, GS, ML, MS, etc. Who gives a shit about whether or not you went to full or part time b-school - you still don't have a job anymore, so why are you talking like some sort of badass? Have fun paying back all those loans now that you're out of a job and the only thing you know how to do is put a sub-par pitchbook together in PPT. Btw, everybody and their dog went to grad school so I hope you bring something else to the table, otherwise it's no surprise your bosses are cutting you sans bonus. Why don't you go back to your networking sessions or team up with Prescott Uberdouche at the Fashion Meets Finance event.
Posted by Cincinnatus C , Jun 24, 2008 8:35PM
University of Chicago has a PT program.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 8:48PM
Other shitty schools with PT programs include:
NYU Stern
Northwestern Kellogg
UCLA
The student who can make it through these schools while holding a day job and other normal human responsibilities, like raising a family,show lots of character and drive.Couple that with more experience.
Who but a douche would denigrate these people?
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 9:35PM
You laid off analysts go on to full time B-school and when you get out I will still be making more than you.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 9:55PM
Last time I checked, neither NYU, nor Kellogg, nor UCLA made it to top ten in b-schools. I mean -- does somebody believe that going to a non-top-10 school matters at all? You may as well enroll your dog in the school. Chicago is a wild card -- this must be a Citadel in-house program.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 10:11PM
Why would someone want to do an MBA instead of something with more useful maths skills that will actually be of use on Wall Street these days like Operations Research, Engineering or Applied Physics ?
Posted by BlackSwan06 , Jun 24, 2008 10:24PM
Zero sympathy for whiny babies who complain about paying their own tuition... you get what you deserve and if you don't work hard when you graduate and think that an MBA is going to unlock all doors... life is going to hand you a bowl full of pits.
If you don't know why you're getting an MBA, don't waste the cash. And going Top-10 buys you a network, but not much else. There are smart kids at #20 and douchebags at #1.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 24, 2008 10:42PM
@ BlackSwan
Are you suggesting that a)everyone's parents/firm/otherwise should be paying for their school or b)everyone should be smart enough/work like a slave if they're not and get a massive scholarship?
I can't tell, please enlighten me.
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 10:55PM
Went to a JPM event sponsored by Columbia Business School a few months ago (before Bear) that was attended by faculty and 2nd years. Jamie Dimon told everyone there at the end of his keynote that the world does not owe anyone a living. Then the room fell silent.
Posted by BlackSwan06 , Jun 24, 2008 11:38PM
@Anal_yst:
What I'm suggesting is taking responsibility for your own trajectory, and not depending on someone else to fund your future and complaining about it when they don't. If you want something bad enough, you'll make it happen. Most places with a financial aid office worth a damn (i.e. top schools) will figure out how to get you in the door with a package that doesn't include putting your kidneys up on eBay. Do loans suck? Yes. Are they a necessary evil? Yes. They get paid off, and life goes on.
There's a lot of gray between parents/firms footing the full bill and working your cojones off while in school to pay for tuition, and the money doesn't just go to the perfect GMAT kids.
And what I'm also saying is that an MBA isn't a magic fix-it solution to your professional ills. It's a tool, just like anything else, to help get you where you need to go.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 24, 2008 11:46PM
@ BlackSwan
Thanks for clarifying, totally agree.
There is no magic cure-all, but working hard(er) and smart(er) is the only thing that consistently results in professional success.
PZ, I'm outa here!
Posted by Cincinnatus C , Jun 24, 2008 11:48PM
please. NYU, UCLA are great schools...the top ten lists are bullshit. NYU has cache. and obviously Chicago has been aroudn far longer than citadel...i personally know a fair amount of non-citadel people that have graduated from there. one of them came to work for UBS here in nyc around the time of the painewebber acq.
people ripping on schools like NYU/UCLA probably got their MBAs at small faggy schools like Dartmouth or Swarthmore or other schools whose names people can't spell...
Posted by Cincinnatus C , Jun 24, 2008 11:48PM
please. NYU, UCLA are great schools...the top ten lists are bullshit. NYU has cache. and obviously Chicago has been aroudn far longer than citadel...i personally know a fair amount of non-citadel people that have graduated from there. one of them came to work for UBS here in nyc around the time of the painewebber acq.
people ripping on schools like NYU/UCLA probably got their MBAs at small faggy schools like Dartmouth or Swarthmore or other schools whose names people can't spell...
Posted by guest , Jun 24, 2008 11:58PM
MBA = Masturbate Because Alone
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 12:15AM
@ Cinncinatus-- swarthmore is a liberal arts college and does not have a business school, you fucking moron.
Posted by NSD , Jun 25, 2008 2:10AM
I thought I would weigh in as someone who did a PT program.
My rationale at the time was:
1. Did not want to give up $400K in income.
2. I didnt want the student debt, so I paid cash.
3. Already on buyside - not looking to change industry
4. At 2 classes a week straight through, I could do it in 2.5 yrs
If given the opportunity to do it again, I would say that I would have gone full time. Primarily to go to a better school. While well respected, my program was not top tier, and it does make a big difference now that I am back on the market looking for work.
As we all know, you have to walk through the door on your own merits, but the school will open more doors for you.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 3:04AM
all of you have no fucking clue and probably bitch about mba because you couldn't afford it or get in yourself. as for the people at MS who did their MBA part-time, it is because it was free. and we get to go to the #1 part-time school in the nation. in fact, i know many of us who can get into the top tier fulltime b-schools but decided to stay part-time because it was 100% free. wouldn't you do the same? you can finish the same degree in 2.5 years and pay nothing! it is very unfortunate now that MS is cutting costs, but in the long run, we get the same degree as FTers and can easily move from area to area. and for networking, there is no difference. in fact, PT program has wider networks than FT, and most of them can refer you to better jobs whereas FTers are all competiting for the same jobs. notice even HBS only has 89% employment rate after graduation.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 4:05AM
this is so much the american way. Being a european with a quant post grad, I can tell for sure that people in europe who do MBA are people who are not smart enough to enroll into a spcialized programm. Come on, when you look at the list of courses of almost any MBA programm, you realize that those people are paying to get a network, not a decent education.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 5:45AM
MBAs are useless for sales / trading (as mentioned before)
MBAs are useless for Analysis... prefer to hire CFA, CAIA etc....
Not quite sure what an MBA would bring to the table, except the knowledge that the guy/gal is in debt, likes books and has a network. (my pa has a 300 name network on facebook, smallworld and xing... now thats useful)
MBA - Its simply not worth the money for a bank to pay... sorry, but thats my view, plus you tend to have underperforming unfocussed staff that want to do it... they need to improve their work , not try and get a free ticket to a promotion...which by the way people a MBA does NOT give you any more.
Before anyone sneers at me, I run the hedge fund business for a major bank.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 7:58AM
@ 4:05AM
I'm glad you pointed that out, because I too am a specialty graduate in the UK and the people in MBA programs are only the ones that want to work in HR or marketing. Whoever it was that said the MBA only buys you a network and nothing else is 100% correct. These guys arguing about how full time is better are the same douchebags who have no merits to be popular on their own, so they have to provide their CV to everyone in order to feel liked. The girls they meet think they're douchebags for talking about grad school so much. Btw, I work in private equity, not IBanking, and never would consider it.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 8:01AM
"full time mba @ top-10 school (2008 admission): $70k+/year."
what school charges 70k per year? you must be including the cost of housing, food, and useless trips with your buddies to the french riviera after finals.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 8:06AM
I love visiting DB lately because there's nothing more entertaining than watching spoiled, overprivileged investment bankers whine about stupid shit.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 8:10AM
@955 Kellogg, Chicago, and NYU are all in fact on the the top 10 list and known to be excellent schools by anyone who knows anything about it. And agreed with Cincinnatus, UCLA is always a top ranked program for finance program, above several of the other "Top 10" schools frequently including Harvard, I assume you are interested in finance right?
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 9:08AM
The non-MBA assholes here are much worse than the MBAs. Wtf is wrong with you guys? Just because you are successful you think it is pathetic that someone else wants to try to better their situation by getting an MBA? Screw off.
Posted by mktmkr , Jun 25, 2008 9:19AM
I'm a PTer at Stern who works in trading. Why am I getting an MBA? Cause it's free and I believe in investing in my education.
All of my classes are identical to the full-time classes only they meet in the evening. Most of my professors teach full time as well and they'll tell you that they'd rather teach part-timers because they have more real world experience and appreciate their work more b/c of everyone's full schedules. Besides the full-time recruiting process (which I don't need b/c of current work contacts) I see no material advantage for the full timers.
If you're in a decent paying job getting a full time MBA is about the stupidest thing you can do. Why would you forgo big time money so that you can return to your college glory years and become a full fledged douche bag? I probably could've gotten in to some Top 10 full time programs but I didn't even consider it. That's a bad trade.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 9:40AM
@ 9:08
The only thing worse than a dumbshit IBanker is an MBA asshole who thinks the school on his CV is going to "better their situation." Have fun paying off those loans yourself when your IBank cuts you and you find you have no applicable skills elsewhere b/c you were too busy attending killer networking events at HBS rather than learning finance. Don't even think about going after a gig at a hedge fund b/c here no one cares about your pitchbook experience!
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 9:54AM
@9:08am
my point (as a non MBA holder) is that we are heading into a world where one needs to have special precise skills in order to be successfull. An MBA does not develop any specific skills (it's quite a general education), but the marketing pitch of MBA schools is "come with us, pay tons of money you usually have to borrow and you'll get the best education". but that is just not true. You get a nice rolodex, beef up your facebook and nothing more really. I have met quite a lot of MBA'ers and unfortunately they were all pretty arrogant and self sufficient... anyway as we say in french, we need everything and everybody to build a world, so I am glad that MBA exists because my quant postgrad was not crowded... hehehe
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 25, 2008 11:02AM
This is an insanely retarded discussion (albeing not an unusual one), with each side pumping themselves up and degrading others who chose differently.
The fact of the matter is - and this is undeniable - that if you work your ass off in a decent program, whether its a M.S. MBA or whatever, you'll do ok.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 25, 2008 11:08AM
Oh, and @ 8:01 who questioned the cost of a FT MBA:
~$74k @ Columbia room/board/tuition...not counting any social/extra expenses associated with living in NYC. Good try though.
http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/mba/learnmore/tuition/expenses
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 11:44AM
Contrasting part time vs. full time MBA
Part time – Build network of professionals that work in the industry that you are interested in
Full time - Build network of professionals that want to work in the industry that you are interested in
As a part time MBA at U of Chicago I have worked with full time and part time students and have gone to group events for both programs. The difference is when you go to an investment management or IB group function for the part timers there are actually people that work in the industry there, at the full time events it is a bunch of people that have never been in the industry hoping that someone with real connections will show up.
I keep a 6 figure salary and have my MBA paid for; I give up sleeping in, going out every night, and on campus recruiting.
Not for everyone but makes sense to me
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 11:45AM
"""if you work your ass off in a decent program, whether its a M.S. MBA or whatever, you'll do ok."""
I do agree with this, but we should add "and don't be a douche" to the list, because when you're a douche (like most IBankers here), even if you do make a lot of $$$ even though you have no exceptional skills, you're still a douche and that just sucks for everyone!
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 1:57PM
@5:45 AM
YOU ARE THE BIGGEST LOSER:
NO OTHER (DICK)HEAD Of A HEDGE FUND WOULD BE ENGAGING IN THIS DISCUSSION
Unless of course you have no MBA...
(hiring CFAs and CAIAs -- total incompetent, insecure loser afraid of not knowing what you missed out on in the MBA programme)
Douche
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 2:06PM
Yes, 5:45, why not hire PhDs? Not making enough money?
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 2:09PM
@5:45
If I could think of a decent hedge fund ran by a bank I may have been more likely to care about your insight
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 2:54PM
If you guys think an MBA is useless, I think the CFA is even worse. Three tests of your short term memory coupled with the knowledge of how to punch out formulas by hand which an excel sheet could do in two seconds.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 3:59PM
@ 2:45
Yeah, and case studies from "top" MBA programmes do a lot to help you make a decision when taking a business to market. I wasn't convinced before, but now I definitely know your MBA was worthless.
@ 1:57
You're engaging in this conversation, so what does that make you. Why don't you get back to your pitchbook or giving your MD a blowjob. Enjoy being at the office for the next 8 hrs. Cunt
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 4:25PM
@ 3:59
Did you mean @2:54? Surprised you passed the button mashing CFA tests with those clumsy fingers.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 5:09PM
@ 4:25
So I am dyslexic ... still make more $$$ than you and I won't be at the office until 11:30pm to pay off school loans hoping I don't get a pink slip tomorrow.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 25, 2008 5:25PM
Everyone's a big shot (on both sides of this, or any argument). Gotta love it, as I said earlier (cum addendum suggested by another): Work hard, work smart, and don't be a douche, everything will work out alright.
Posted by guest , Jun 25, 2008 6:04PM
Anal_yst, how old are you daddy? Like 25? Then stop preaching here, it's annoying.
Posted by guest , Jun 26, 2008 1:10AM
Based on the comments, no one has a bigger chip on their shoulder than a part-time MBA. There's clearly a lot of insecurity there.
Posted by guest , Jun 26, 2008 8:33AM
NSD was spot-on. I did a PT program because:
--I couldn't rationalize not working. In your late 20's you are already short on experience.
--Didn't want the debt.
--At 2 to 3 classes a term, I did it in two years.
If I could do it over, I believe the f/t or p/t thing is indifferent but I would upgrade my school. You DO have to get the job on your own merit, but the school opens more doors for you.
That's why I like research - It's not about the degree, the CFA (have one), or anything else - its about your numbers and how you market the number.
And don't blame the degree. We all make our own bed, and sometimes we have to take a nap.
Good luck to all looking for work!!
Posted by guest , Jun 26, 2008 2:51PM
For me, at the end of the day (my Wall St. time included), the MBA is a means of attempting to overcompensate with education where talent is lacking.
At least lawyers need their JD education in order to practice. In a business setting, you could just decide to kick ass and get promoted for free.
Posted by guest , Jun 27, 2008 9:44AM
@2:51
Actually, you are wrong. Lawyers do not need to get their JD to practice; all they need to practice is to pass the bar examination.
And how did your "Wall St. time" come to an end? Lack of an MBA = Lack of promotion opportunities, n'est pas?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2008 2:46PM
@9:44am,
Dude, most states require an applicant to have some kind of formal legal training (degree) before they will allow that applicant to sit for the bar exam. I don't know one that doesn't. Do you?
Posted by guest , Aug 26, 2008 2:39PM
As someone who graduated cum laude from an Ivy League school and scored 780 on the GMAT, the decision about part-time vs. full-time isn't just about not being able to get to a good full-time. For me the decision was whether or not to give up two years at $100k+ earnings to take on $75,000 in debt or keep earning and have my company pay for it. It would be very difficult for the full-time program to over the $275k present value advantage that the part-time has.
Posted by guest , Aug 26, 2008 2:46PM
75 Assuming you're in NY, I would say that that logic applies only if you go to Stern (part time). Otherwise, you're wasting your time.