So You Failed The CFA: Let's Celebrate

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:07AM

anyone know what associate pay is?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:11AM

@2 more than you'll ever make, ass hat

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:19AM

I got a 10! Actually I don't care that I barely failed because I won the $5,000 a month for life lottery the other day. So it's all good.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:24AM

I think my answers were the perfect contra-indicator. A hedge fund should hire me for a ridiculous amount of money and do exactly the opposite of whatever I say.

Of course - using that logic - since I said a hedge fund should hire me then I guess a hedge fund should NOT hire me...Aargh...the mind boggles.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:30AM

Thanks for rubbing it in. However, I saw where BGE's Constellation has some issues with Fitch over a $1.7 billion exposure on a "non-investment" transaction and I didn't feel so bad.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:31AM

The CFA is reasonably fair. I know very few people who really put in the time studying and fail. Those people who do manage to work hard and still fail a level generally pass the following year anyway.

Almost without exception the failures start late, believe they already know everything, depend upon last minute crunching, and then whine and complain about fairness and "tricky" questions when they bomb.

Total hours put in is a good metric. A real 250 hrs will generally get you success. If you think that you are smarter and more experienced than the rest of the people who are likely to pass and work harder than you, budget 175-200 as this is still a ton of material and hope you don't get unlucky and are as sharp as you believe you are. Either way 50-100hrs is unrealistic for a good chance at passing.

There are a number of smart experienced people who are willing to work hard - if you want to guarantee yourself an excellent chance at passing the bottom line is that you will have to work hard and put in the time. If nothing else the exam is good at weeding out those who won't put in the time and aren't disciplined.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:38AM

The CFA is meaningless. I know a couple of people that passed all levels and they are idiots. If you study long enough you should pass. Like someone mentioned in an earlier post...the CFA is for back office people hoping to get an investment job.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:38AM

7, Thanks Dad.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:40AM

100 hours is more than enough time to pass.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:41AM

#8...how far from passing were you?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:41AM

What are KKR MD numbers?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:45AM

too long, didn't read.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:45AM

8 = sour grapes. Can it hurt to have it? No downside and all potential upside, especially if you're early in your career. No magic bullet, but as was pointed out before, in a tough job market when HR hands the hiring manager 100 resumes (out of the 600 they received) you can bet that the 20 that say CFA will at least get noticed. Plus its not like Harvard, where the barriers to entry are established by other people - this is all yours. Study on your own time, as much or little as necessary. And, some of the material is actually interesting (OK, I'm a nerd) and you do learn a lot. Stop your collective whining and go do it.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:46AM

#11...didn't take it...as I said I am not wasting my time...I already have an investment job. No need to waste 250 hours of my time to have three letters put next to my name on my business card. Knowing the info on the CFA and actually being able to apply some of it to real life is very different. I have a friend who has a near photographic memory. Ask him something and he can regurgitate it...ask him to apply it to something and no luck. He would kill on the CFA, but doesn't mean he would be a good analyst.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:48AM

15 What kind of "investment job"?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:50AM

I'm guessing 8/15 works in trade settlements

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:50AM

distressed debt analyst

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:53AM

14, there is upside to the CFA, but is it worth throwing away 18 months of your life? And on top of that, is it worth paying thousands of dollars in bullshit fees to a complete Ponzi scheme of an organization?

The CFA is a somewhat useful designation to have, but the fact that the CFA organization charges what it does is ludicrous. There's no reason why they shouldn't offer refunds (if not full, at least partial) for people who pay their ridiculously steep registration fees then have to postpone their test-taking plans to a later date with a reasonable amount of notice.

My question is this: where in the hell do all those registration $s go? There must be some dude at the top of the CFA organization making $30 million a year laughing his ass off at all the lemmings who dutifully pay $1000 every year to take a scantron test.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:53AM

no...trade settlements is back office...If that was my job I would be taking the CFA

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:54AM

15 So the only downside is the 250 hours you're gonna waste? That's pretty stupid. I think the real downside is that you're afraid you're gonna fail. No way to go through life. Step up and try.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:56AM

actually 750 hours...there are 3 tests...and I already work 60-80 hours a week and I actually enjoy having a life.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:57AM

I'm sure someone has done a study on the effect of gaining a CFA on your comp...that would answer the question on whether or not it is worthwhile

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 9:59AM

@15 good call. the cfa is a great qualification for career switchers or people moving internally but if you are already in a front office role no need to bother.

CFA says a lot, a physics degree and 2 years performance says a lot more.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:00AM

19 Its not throwing away 18 mos of your life. Start in January, get the books, find a quiet place and read em for an hour or two a few nights a week and for a few hours on the weekend. Believe me, a lot of it is actually interesting. Then as you get to the end - say last six weeks - pick up the intensity and focus on the practice exams, over and over. Get one of those laminated cards and learn the formulas. Take the test and if you've put in the time you pass and get six mos off for good behavior. Before you know it its done. Jeez, what is that so f-ing hard if you want to develop your career?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:00AM

#24 Thank you

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:04AM

CFA designation = decent familiarity with a broad number of investment topics and willingness to work hard and put in time.

No designation or academic credential guarantees that one will be a superior investor which is why so many people with all the hoopla still stink but get wealthy anyway due to the margins in the business (I have a CFA/MBA for what it's worth). But that's not what these things are about. They are tools and education for the person - not the person themselves.

Willingness to commit time and self discipline outside of work says something about a person. Whining and complaining says something too.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:04AM

24 Typical CFA candidate is mid 20s, a few years experience. Are there really a lot of those people that are already on a fast track? If they are, they're probably like your example: super academics, given a crack at managing money and did it well. You're correct, for them CFA is a waste of time. But they're a rare breed. For the rest of us though, the program is a good move.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:06AM

27 Perfect

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:08AM

#28 thanks for repeating exactly what I said, but attempting to pass it off as something new. I think you will find in the CFA ethics book a prohibition against representing other peoples orignal thought as your own.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:09AM

25, fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact that the CFA is a bloodsucking organization that gouges the shit out of people on fees and an unnecessarily restrictive (read: nonexistent) postponement policy.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:11AM

30 Huh?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:13AM

31 Re the fees, I think they get away with it because so many companies reimburse their employees. If you're paying yourself you're probably in the minority. But again, if it helps your career its not a bad investment. Like buying a new suit.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:15AM

#27...why not just volunteer and help other people...doesn't that say you're willing to commit time and shows self discipline..it also shows you're not totally self centered

Posted by fyi, Aug 22, 2008 10:16AM

Enough with this BS...where is the happy hour for people that failed?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:17AM

34 Maybe so, but I'm not sure a prospective employer would agree (that volunteering and investing the time to pass the CFA are equivalent).

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:21AM

depends on the employer...you're resume should speak for itself...if you've come from a top school with good grades and have been able to perform at a high level at your past jobs, passing the CFA shouldn't mean much, but if you've come from a crappy school and were at some hedge fund that blew up 2 minutes after you got there a CFA would help.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:22AM

Can we come up with a way other than "ponzi scheme" to describe a scam? Its kinda tired.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:27AM

37 The more likely scenario is that you're early in your career and your resume is not that fat, you're not at GS, but further down the food chain. Maybe one of a million in asset management at JPM, on a decent but not especially fast track. That's why you do the program. Again, it can't hurt.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:51AM

#15
"didn't take it...as I said I am not wasting my time...I already have an investment job. "
With this admirable work ethic you are destined for greatness. Perhaps you could advise me on how I can do as little as possible?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:54AM

@ 38

how about this:

CFA is like the Church of Scientology

why don't you come in and take a personality test, I'm sure that you'll find that you really need what we're selling

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:56AM

I believe 15 said he's a distressed debt analyst, working 80 hour weeks. Good for him. Hope he doesn't loose his job and have to compete with other analysts. Also hope he's not interested in moving to a better firm (there's always a better firm), where his resume is going to be in a pile with a lot of others that say "CFA".

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:57AM

#40...I spend my time working on real life deals...getting real experience. Not my fault you work at a bank or Private equity firm that hasn't done a deal in over a year. Also,I actually still read and study relevant topics on my own time, but I don't do it to pass a test I actually do it to learn something. I bet if you asked most people to take the CFA again 2 years after passing it, most would fail because they forgot the majority of the info.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:58AM

43 Get back to work.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 10:59AM

I've read all 39 posts on this thread. Many of them are very well written and informative; however, only one of you (#4) addressed Mr. Carney's request.

"Where did you rank among the failed candidates?" Were you a one or a 10?

You clowns (#4 excluded) must have all failed the test too, and most of you probably flunked because you didn't read the f'n directions.

Some kind of wannabee 'ballers' and 'rainmakers' you goons are.

The Guy from Delaware

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 11:00AM

43 You sound kind of stupid. What are you analyzing, garment center trade claims?

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 11:03AM

#46 Did I hit a nerve? Name calling and insults like that mean you have nothing else to say...Anyways I actually have real work to do. I am in the middle of a refinancing on one of my deals and I have to lead a call to go over the docs and the closing...anyways enjoy the last few weeks of your unemployment benefits

Posted by Suits, Aug 22, 2008 11:16AM

23 - that study has been done, albeit by CFA Institute. Surprise surprise, their data shows CFA holders earn a large premium to non-holders, and even a premium to MBAs (remember folks, that's all MBAs, not just top ten).

The thing about CFA vs MBA (just to beat that dead horse some more, although this point is relevant to this discussion) is that people rarely "fail" their MBA. You pick a school, you go, 2 years later you graduate with an MBA and a lower handicap. CFA is a merit based level playing field, and the material/dedication necessary to pass are such that I can look at a resume with "CFA" and know their's likely a minimum level of competence. The test is far from perfect, but like statistics, it's the worst tool we've got, except for all the others.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 11:21AM

No surprise re the comp # vs. all MBAs, since a lot of CFAs work in asset management, where the margins are high and the compensation very rich.

Posted by Anal_yst, Aug 22, 2008 11:35AM

To those who whine about how much the CFA costs, what about MBA? 70k+_@ NYU or Columbia this year including room/board? Plus opportunity cost since most people won't earn much, if anything while doing a full time program.

I'm leaning towards the MBA/MS finance, but those who've taken the cfa make several good arguments in favor of that route.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 11:44AM

@45 is right, none of you answered the question.

no wonder you failed the fucking test.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 12:08PM

The CFA program is great. Work typically pays for it and you learn a lot. The only cost is your time.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 1:21PM

I'm guessing the distressed debt "real life deals" #18 works on is credit card collections or used vehicle repossesions.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 1:47PM

i agree that distressed debt guy / gal is probably just a hater who is afraid to tell everyone at work that he / she failed on the CFA, and he / she hides this under a flimsy veil of snootiness.

i just passed CFA last year and it has really raised my profile at work and with clients - and always in situations where i need to establish credibility quickly.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 3:07PM

#53 You would be incorrect in your guess and from your comment you are probably some 1st year analyst who has not even been involved in any deals, unless mapping out where all the Starbucks closing in NYC are so that you can make sure you are still able to get your associates their coffee in a timely manner, a deal.

#54 I never took the test (therefore never failed) and if you can't perform at a level in which your work product can speak for itself and it takes a CFA to get you noticed I would say that doesn't bode well for you down the road in your career. And the way I obtain credibility is when I open my mouth I know what I am talking about and my work backs that up. And most people I have met who are members never even mention that they. You usually only notice if they happen to put it on their business card.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 3:08PM

Here's the deal. If you want to be an equity analyst or investment manager (who actually runs money) then you should have a CFA. No question about it. I say this as someone who formerly managed money. If you want to be a banker or PE guru, then the CFA is a waste of your time -- you should instead get an MBA from a very good school. I say this as a current banker who holds an MBA from a very good school.

A CFA proves commitment; it doesn't necessarily prove competency. I suspect that many CFA holders are quite competent as analysts, but far fewer would really be good money managers. It takes something special to be a good investor, and you can’t just learn it by passing the CFA. It’s about guts and gut feeling -- you either have it or you don't.

An MBA also doesn't prove competency. It shows that you've been pre-screened by a school. The better the school, the more likely you will be a good candidate for hire. But an MBA from a good school also tends to indicate that you’re well-rounded to some degree (though this certainly depends on the school). Whether or not this is relevant depends completely on what a candidate or company is looking for.

In short, there is no one answer as to which degree/certification is better. Depends entirely upon what someone wants to do with their life. For particular paths, however, getting one degree/certification vs. another tends to be much more cut and dry.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 3:17PM

@55

Aren't you supposed to be on a conference call closing the refinancing of your AWESOMENESS? For a great banker like you, you definitely seem to spend too much time on DB, but I guess 2 keyboards and 4 hands take care of that. Anyway, thanks for all the mentoring you provided to us mortals today!!!

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 3:23PM

#54 you have to be careful not to confuse Knowledge (CFA) with intelligence (being able to apply your knowledge). Those people that show that the know how to apply what they have learned will be the ones that succeed and most people in this industry realize that. Not that having a CFA is a bad thing, but it won't get you far on that alone. A smart person w/o a CFA will get a lot further than a mediocre person with a CFA. Your work will always be the ultimate test.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 3:26PM

#57...already done...I was so awesome they gave me 2 extra turns of leverage and flexed down 100bps.

Posted by guest, Aug 22, 2008 5:48PM

My sense is that the CFA does show competence- you won't be able to answer any questions on L3 if you don't know what you're talking about- and the MC on L1 and L2 are very difficult for the vast majority of test takers. The fact that such a small percentage of people score well in a traditional sense- say above 90% indicates that the exams are far more challenging than typical finals in undergrad (ex. science) and MBA.

I'm in business school now at a "very good school" and while the academic component is trivial compared to undergrad, the value really is in building a network. You can't do this much as a CFA in NY since the NYSSA is a very impersonal organization that doesn't have any events, only money-making seminars.

Posted by guest, Aug 26, 2008 6:35PM

The CFA designation itself does not guarantee one to be an excellent finance professional. As previous poster mentioned about his photogenic memory friend, who could excel in the cfa exam process but bomb at applying the knowledge, it takes more than letters to make you a professional.

Having said this, I believe that the CFA designation is a career enhancer. It will propel your career in finance not create one for you. If I had the choice of hiring between a person with 10years Wall street experience and no CFA and a recent CFA holder with the minimum 4 year work experience, I would definitely choose the person with the 10 year experience. However, if I had the choice between 2 10year wall street vets and one of them had a CFA designation and the other didn't, I'll go with the one with the CFA. So it all depends.

Posted by guest, Aug 26, 2008 8:13PM

55 Most people who are members? Like of the CFA? What are you talking about. Better yet: "if you can't perform at a level at which your work product speaks for itself.." Look, its this simple: this is a competitive world filled with a lot of smart people and limited opportunities. Many people's work product speaks for itself. Earning the CFA charter is just one way that you can differentiate yourself.

Posted by guest, Aug 27, 2008 4:50PM

the CFA just means you can read a book, retain some info, and regurgitate it later. congrats. i know idiots who have it and geniuses that don't. and for those of you that put "CFA" on your outlook sig, for shame! you are the lamest of all.

Posted by guest, Aug 28, 2008 2:24AM

#63

Dude, take a break - btw, what have you done in life? went to high school, right? went to college, right? Dont you tell people that you are a graduate?
We like to tell people that we are CFA's - and we like being one. I have the money to spend on it and I need the CFA in my outlook signature. And you wont have it ever coz of your attitute.

"i know idiots who have it and geniuses that don't" - It doenst matter who you know and who you dont know - what matters is that CFA offers learning, and idiots are found everywhere, even in harvard, wharton and tuck. So, the universal law of idiots applies to CFA too. if you don wanna go for it (you can actually go for it as u r an idiot), then keep your thoughts to yourself.

A guy (an idiot too) from New Delhi