We knew that Morgan Stanley was in talks with a number of banks to discuss possible mergers. But until late tonight we only had one name: Wachovia. Now CNBC has dug up another name: Chinese bank Citic.
Morgan Stanley is in talks to possibly be acquired by Chinese bank Citic, sources in the U.S. and China have told CNBC.
No deal is certain at this time, however, and sources said that none was likely to be finalized Wednesday.
and then?
Dearly beloved
We are gathered here today
2 get through this thing called life
no and then!!!!
All bow to your new Chinese overrords.
The most ridiculous thing is that CITIC’s wikipedia has already been changed.
I bet full house that MS will be taken over by the Chinese. No hell in way Mack wants to go in bed with a bankrupt WB instead of a cash rich alien.
Cut to the chase. Are the MS employees supposed to learn Cantonese or Mandarin?
I call BS, no chance of passing politco. good try though ride the storm out, drive the chinese nuts and then take control of the country. Nice proliferation strat – no pull though keeping short
People need capital. All the savers over the past 10 years have (e.g. the Chinese). The deal fits, but the problem is the political fallout. Even if the deal makes economic sense, it just doesn’t look good ostensibly.
People need capital. All the savers over the past 10 years have capital (e.g. the Chinese). The deal with MS fits, but the problem is the political fallout. Even if the deal makes economic sense, it just doesn’t look good ostensibly.
whats up with WB talks?
Oh for God’s sake. Not the Chinese.
Still, better than the deal Lehman got. Go bankrupt and THEN the Limeys buy you.
Let’s change the name of Wall St to Great Wall St.
And stop whining and start embracing.
This is inevitable.
why would politicians care
This rule will sail through.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azcdHnL1.yIc&refer=home
SEC regulated advisors have to disclose long positions on 13f, they should also disclose short positions. absolutely no legitimate reason not too.
Morgan has a nicer billboard then Lehman.
I bid $2.05 dollars.
Full stop.
According to cnbc the fed is onside with a capital injection from the chinese. They already own 9.9% of MS. As for a complete take over – well that would be difficult. The chinese have access to the fed discount window might (i sure as hell hope so) be a problem.
Who knows perhaps this
“foreign invasion” will finally make the presidential candidate attempt to at a minimum understand what the hell is going on.
Since the freddie/fannie bailout (seems like that was months ago) it has become apparent that at this point both candidates are complete shorts (naked short referenece with respect to sarah pallin can be inserted here). We are 13 months into this and neither has a fucking clue!
The one reason we need to save MS is to stop Time Square from totally being infested by tourist from the UK and Kansas.
Naked shorts rules change. Will be funny if these hedge funds show that they are humping their prime brokers stock dry as then 2 time them.
Full stop.
Mandatory 1 child policy for MS employees, forced abortions will be performed in the company cafeteria (free of charge of course.)
18 “Time” square? Its named after the newpaper, not the magazine. You must also be from Kansas.
20 – Yes, and the girls from Kansas are kinda hot too.
Full stop.
Whoops! Another British bank went kaboosh!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26761475
Take that bitches!
What happens when Alpha has to disclose they’re short MS? Fight to the death?
Why is MS so quick to pull the trigger and sell themselves? THEY ARE NOT IN DIRE STRAIGHTS OR THE PROBLEM THAT MER, LEH OR BSC HAD???? This is insanity….
Someone give a lucid fucking answer to this…why…
24- stock drops, ratings drop, no one trades with them. Morganites start street walking on 8th between 46 and 47th streets?
Anyone shorting Macquarie? They are a Hedgie favorite.
actually, it is the FED that is short; they have hedged their loans to the PBDs/IBs/etals
Leave Macquire alone, I’m sure the infrastructure plays are properly marked.
Full stop.
@17
Problem is McCain has too many lobbyists telling him what to say. And Obama has too many consultants telling him what not to say so he doesn’t piss off anybody. But things will change closer to election day. Just wait and see.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed_oilsep17,0,4833605.story
i don’t believe this shit. anyone heard about this guy?
Yips on the house!
RE: #23
I now have a mental image of Blankfein and Mack in that scene from the shitty newer Star Wars flick, with Yoda and what’s his face zapping each other with electricity from their fingertips.
Hahaha.
Carry on.
Tell me again why people think that Republicans are good for the economy and for Wall Street…
@29 I’ll take Rubin, Goolsbee, and Co. over Phil Gramm anyday
Why does a stock drop necessitate a ratings drop? And if they just showed a profit and have cash on hand why wouldn’t someone trade with them? It’s Morgan Fucking Stanely.
@35
It’s A Fucking IG. Beat that.
@35
I’m pretty sure companies are valued based on cash flow not “earnings” I recall enron and plenty of “profits” But keep thinking like that. I’ll be willing to sell you some shares for $15 on monday.
Let me know who to send the contract to.
#26 & 28
Macq Bank’s infrastructure business model is very dependent on transaction volume of assets to allow the parent company to extract management and performance fees from the subsidiary funds. Investors have been screaming for years about transactions done at frothy prices between related entities and with little transparency.
With regards to whether their assets are properly marked. Who knows? One comforting factor is that most of their assets do generate good cashflow. So they can weather this for a while yet.
When push comes to shove, it will be JP Morgan – Morgan Stanley. I can’t see how dirt broke Wachovia can do anything. They can barely save themselves.
How much is Morgan’s building in TS worth?
Full stop.
Dick Fuld finally adressed the troops.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amhAWGlw71UA&refer=home
Not for anything but china is not a democratic republic so they could decide whatever at whatever time they want and if you are doing business with them you just might be out of luck.
Probably in the $1.2-$1.5bn range. Similar to Lehman. Though at some point Manhattan commercial real estate valuations are gonna take a dive. Lots of space becoming available.
Cash flow is king…did MS have negative cash flow? Is their balance sheet that fucked?
I heard they are also talking to the Bank of Latvia
@43
Doesn’t really matter at this point. If noone wants to lend them money, the business model is broken.
@38
They’ve been increasing their borrowings over the years in order to maintain their high dividend payout.
Isn’t that fucked up? Their cashflow from their assets cannot sustain the high dividend payout. So they borrow to make good.
That worked when credit was easily available. Can’t say the same now.
If Morgan + Wachovia = Morgovia, what does the combination of Morgan and Citic equal?
If Morgan + Wachovia = Morgovia, what does the combination of Morgan and Citic equal?
Carney stop the insanity. Ever since I started reading DB Wall Street has smelled like horseshit.
Makes sense why John Mack wants to pursue a deal with CITIC.
CITIC is the only cash buyer on the horizon and they will not push Mack out of the CEO office.
Win-Win if it happens.
But final decision will rest with Beijing and whether the Fed Funds Windows will be available to them after being taken over.
I won’t do this deal if I were Mr Zhang calling the shots.
OK, you really want to know why our cushy way of life is over? http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/18/business/18asiainvest.php The party is over and it’s time to pay the band. Seriously, though, and I’m speaking as a capital markets guy with 37 years experience at a very senior level, we’re really done for. Spread your cash into banks below the FDIC limit and buy a basket of foreign currencies with the rest.
REMEMBER THIS SHIT BITCHES, DON’T SOUND SO CRAZY NOW DOES IT??????
It is now clear that we are again – as we were in mid- March at the time of the Bear Stearns collapse – an epsilon away from a generalized run on most of the shadow banking system, especially the other major independent broker dealers (Lehman, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs). If Lehman does not find a buyer over the weekend and the counterparties of Lehman withdraw their credit lines on Monday (as they all will in the absence of a deal) you will have not only a collapse of Lehman but also the beginning of a run on the other independent broker dealers (Merrill Lynch first but also in sequence Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and possibly even those broker dealers that are part of a larger commercial bank, I.e. JP Morgan and Citigroup). Then this run would lead to a massive systemic meltdown of the financial system. That is the reason why the Fed has convened in emergency meetings the heads of all major Wall Street firms on Friday and again today to convince them not to pull the plug on Lehman and maintain their exposure to this distressed broker dealer.
Let me elaborate in much detail on these issues…
This bail-in of investors is the opposite of a bailout of investors like the one that was done in the case of Bear Stearns and Fannie and Freddie. It is thus akin to the bail-in of investors that was done in the case of LTCM in the summer of 1998 and the bail-in of the interbank creditors of Korean banks in the winter of 1997. I wrote in 2004 with Brad Setser an entire book titled “Bailouts versus Bailins: Responding to Financial Crises in Emerging Markets” that discusses these policy tradeoffs in financial crises where you have runs on the liquid liabilities of either illiquid and/or insolvent countries. Those were the international equivalent of the banks runs and financial crises that we are now seeing in the cases of Bear Stearns, Lehman and Fannie and Freddie.
Since government bailouts put at risk public money and create moral hazard Treasury and the Fed decided that they need to draw a line somewhere after the bailouts of Bear Stearns creditors, of Fannie and Freddie and all the other actions aimed at backstopping the financial system. These actions have included the creation of the TAF, TSLF, PDCF, the use of the FHLBs to provide liquidity to distressed mortgage lenders, the provision of Treasury liquidity to the FHLBs, the outright purchase of agency MBS by the Treasury, the swapping of two thirds of the safe Treasuries of the Fed for toxic illiquid securities of banks and non banks, etc. So after having created the mother of all moral hazard with their actions (including the biggest bailout of all, i.e. the rescue of Fannie and Freddie) the Fed and Treasury are playing a chicken game with the financial system. Tim Geithner told clearly to the heads of all the major Wall Street firms that if they pull the plug on Lehman and Lehman collapses they are next in line for a run on their institutions. So if a buyer for Lehman is not found (or even if it is found and the counterparty lines are still pulled) not only Lehman will collapse but the run will extend to all of the other major broker dealers and banks that are the counterparties of Lehman.
The Fed may delude itself in thinking – as its stress models suggest – that the systemic risk of a collapse of Lehman are less serious than those of Bear Stearns: after all Lehman is less involved into CDSs than Bear was and now both Lehman and the other major broker dealers have access to the discount window with the PDCF. A collapse of Lehman instead will have as much of a systemic effect as the collapse of Bear for many reasons: Lehman is larger than Bear was; Lehman is a major player in a variety of key financial markets; all the other major Wall Street institutions are interconnected with Lehman in dozens of different types of counterparty activities; the PDCF support of the Fed is neither unlimited nor unconditional, i.e. investors cannot assume that Lehman or any other broker dealer can borrow unlimited amounts with no conditions from the discount window. Thus, a collapse of Lehman would trigger a panic and a potential run on all sort of other broker dealers and also on other distressed financial institutions like banks (WaMu) and insurance companies (AIG) and smaller member of the shadow financial system (distressed and highly leveraged hedge funds, etc.).
The reason why Lehman is having a hard time to find a buyer is that it is most likely insolvent. If you had to mark to market the value of it illiquid and toxic assets (the $40 billion of commercial real estate assets, its remaining residential MBS and CDOs, its holdings of real estate private equity funds) Lehman is most likely insolvent (i.e. has negative net worth with liabilities well above its impaired assets). So leaving aside the potential and now dubious value of its franchise (an option to the value of a much slimmed down financial institution) no financial institution should be paying even a single penny to buy an insolvent firm. That is why all the potential suitors of Lehman (such as Bank of America and others) are waiting for the government to provide another sleazy Bear Stearns deal where the government would buy at higher than market value the toxic assets of Lehman (the commercial real estate assets for example) so as to make the net worth of the remaining institution positive and worth buying. But such action – borderline illegal in the case of Bear as pointed out by Paul Volcker – would be a scandal in the case of Lehman and severely exacerbate the moral hazard problem.
But here lies the conundrum of this Lehman crisis: no one seems to want to buy for a positive price Lehman unless there is a public subsidy (taking off their toxic assets off the firms’ balance sheet). The government cannot afford to provide the subsidy as the moral hazard problems are becoming severe. But then if on Monday no deal is done Lehman collapses and goes into Chapter 11 court and you have the beginning of a systemic financial meltdown as the run on the other broker dealers will start. Thus, what Fed and Treasury are trying to do this weekend is another 1998 LTCM bailin or Korea 1997 bailin, i.e. trying to convince all the major institutions to either support a purchase of Lehman or maintain their exposure to Lehman if no buyers is found or put capital into a bad bank that would take the toxic assets off Lehman’s balance sheet. Can this bail-in work? It is not clear as there is a major collective action problem: you can’t only convince half a dozen major Wall Street firms to maintain their exposure to Lehman or fork new money to support a bad bank full of junky toxic waste. You need also to convince all the other counterparties of Lehman (including the hedge funds and the other broker dealers and banks) not to roll off their claims and credit to Lehman. This is a much more messy collective action problem and coordination game than in the case of LTCM and Korea where the number of involved counterparties was more limited (less than 20 in each case).
Paulson and Bernanke and Geithner (the troika managing this financial crisis) have all made public statements in the last few month to the necessity of finding an orderly way to close down – rather than bailout – a major and systemically important non bank financial institutions: the embarrassment and losses for the Fed that the bailout of the creditors of Bear led made it paramount to avoid another Bear like bailout. That is why they are now playing tough with Lehman and its creditors. But in this game of chicken the Fed and the Treasury may end up being the ones to blink. Faced with the risk of a generalized run on the other broker dealers they may decide that greasing again a deal for the purchase of Lehman may be less costly and less risky than testing whether the system can orderly work out a collapse of Lehman (something that is highly uncertain). Even in the case of the Bank of America purchase of Countrywide such public subsidy was significant (the FHLB of Atlanta lent to Countrywide over $50 billion and Bank of America has most likely received plenty of tacit forbearance from the Fed to support its takeover of an insolvent Countrywide). So implicitly or explicitly the Fed and the Treasury may decide – however reckless and moral hazard laden that choice may be – to provide some explicit or implicit subsidy to a private purchase of Lehman.
The trouble is that, in spite of all public statements regarding the need to provide an orderly demise of large broker dealers, the Fed and the Treasury have done nothing to create such insolvency regime for such broker dealers. So the only option for Lehman – if a buyer is not found – will be the one of ending up in Chapter 11 and trigger massive losses on its counterparties that will in turn trigger a run on such counterparties.
In February of 2008 I predicted – in my “12 Steps to a Financial Disaster” – that one or two major broker dealers would go bankrupt. A month later Bear Stearns went bust and the collapse of the other ones was avoided for a time by the most radical change in monetary policy since the Great Depression, i.e. the creation of the PDCF that extended the lender of last resort (LOLR) role of the Fed to non-bank systemically important broker dealers (i.e. all of the bank and non bank primary dealers of the Fed).
I next argued in June that such action would not prevent a run on other broker dealers such Lehman as to avoid a run you need both deposit insurance and unlimited and unconditional access to the Fed LOLR support. I also discussed why Lehman was next in line for a collapse and why the PDCF would not prevent a run on Lehman.
I also argued in follow-up pieces that, in a matter of two years, no one of the remaining independent broker dealers (Lehman, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs) would survive as: 1. their business model is now impaired (securitization is semi-dead); 2. they will need to be regulated like banks given the PDCF support and thus have lower leverage, higher liquidity and more capital that will erode their profitability; 3. Their severe maturity mismatch – borrowing very short term and liquid, leveraging a lot and lending and investing in more long term and illiquid ways – makes them very fragile – in the absence of deposit insurance and in the presence of only limited LOLR support by a central bank – to bank like run that are destructive even of illiquid but otherwise solvent institutions. Thus all such broker dealers need to merge with larger financial institutions that have a commercial banking arm and thus access to stable and insured deposits and to true LOLR Fed support. That process of unraveling of independent broker dealers started with Bear Stearns; now it is moved to Lehman; tomorrow Merrill Lynch will be on line; and Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs will be next. No one of them can and will survive as independent entities. So, the Fed and Treasury should advise them all to start finding a large international partner (international as almost no domestic partner is now sound to take them over) and merge with such partner before we get another Bear or Lehman disaster.
Hey you republican cronies, your leaders are so stupid. One cannot use email and the other got her Yahoo email account hacked. Great judgment you have. Vote Obama 09.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10044919-38.html
If you want to post your diary, go post it on WordPress. You were an only child?
Morganites looking to drown their sorrows – meet up at Blue Fin.
That’s tomorrow at 8:00pm.
What a fucking dagger -
“Fuld sold shares that were worth $247 million a year and a half ago for less than $500,000 this week after he failed to find a buyer for his firm…
“Fuld received almost half a billion dollars in cash from sales of Lehman stock he was awarded during his 14-year tenure as Lehman’s chairman and CEO, according to Fortune magazine.”
With $500M in previous stock sales he couldn’t hold on to that last $500k worth of shares. “Hey employees, fuck you! I had enough shares to still make 500k while (almost) none of you have jobs.” What an ass.
Fuck this. Morgan must live. This insane piling-on must stop.
although i have found most of the gimmicks on DB less than noteworthy, “Full stop” has wit.
This Citic thing is a ploy. Mack is a shrewd son of a bitch. He head fakes with WB to buy time, market calls bull shit, then he goes to the Reds who have more than enough capital to pull off the deal and thus, freak out Congress (along with some pretty anti-Dollar monetary policy). Johnny Mack thus gets under the table favorable treatment from Paulson.
Now we stop and pour a little out for our hommies who aren’t employed, through no fault of their own.
Next, Paulson approaches S&P and Moody’s, tells the firms through an intermediary that if they put MS on watch the firms will be in the mother of all litigation, straight getting their shit pushed in, with franchise destroying potential (give the benefit of the doubt that the corporate guys have so far been OK, although defaults are still low so it’s just a matter of time).
Ratings agencies say “No chance! We are independent.” Paulson says “The liability from your royal ABS fuck-up can drown you alone, don’t make me pull this bus over and smack that ass.”
Moody’s relents, S&P pretends to fight as they always wait to see what Moody’s is going to do first, and it buys MS (and GS for that matter, no conflict of interest there) a couple weeks to get themselves cozy in a merger/take-out.
Conclusion: Equity still fucked, but all those selling protection at 1100 over, you are going to get tagged like a dirty 18 year old latina on the Bang Bus. Holler!!!!!!!!
@51
you anti-american bitch.
I for one welcome our new totalitarian overlords.
@52
No one likes you.
Morgan Stanley is going to be owned by the CHINESE!!!
I am so glad I decided to be a lawyer instead of a banker.
#52…go walk off a cliff. Oh and too long didn’t read.
The nuts really come out at night here. Freaks.
58 – When you stop slurping on your 7 eleven slushy, wake up and realize there is nothing American about any of these IBs.
Where’s my coffee, my bed awaits.
Full Stop.
“You remember that thing we had about 30 years ago called the Korean conflict? And how we failed to achieve victory? How come we didn’t cross the 38th parallel and push those rice-eaters back to the Great Wall of China?”
SAY IT!! SAY IT!! SAY IT!!
Probably in the $1.2-$1.5bn range. Similar to Lehman. Though at some point Manhattan commercial real estate valuations are gonna take a dive. Lots of space becoming available.
Paulson takes Moody’s to the Bangbus! Film at 11!
#43 – look at the balance sheet. they are leveraged around 29:1, or 97% (using Q2 numbers), and that’s with no adjustment for true asset values. tweak a couple of the asset values, a few billion here or there, and you’re left with higher liabilities than assets (never mind the capital requirements, ratings issues, cost of capital, etc.).
@42, @65 congratulations on having the biggest double post spread on the big board.
“We need a merger partner or we’re not going to make it,” Mr. Mack told Mr. Pandit, according to two people briefed on the talks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/business/18wall.html
Jesus
There was a chatter today during trading day (12PM) about a buyer. Call options volume was unsual. It was in the chatter. Instead of buying calls, we sold ITM puts (to gain volatility premium as well).
http://financialtraders.blogspot.com
@53, I hope you will vote for Obama in 2009. Idiot Democrat.
I need my bed moved to the right side of my apartment, I want to be able to roll freely to my left. Any free Morganite, I will pay three times the value MS bailout. Yes, that’s $2.05.
Full stop.
Someone buy my house.
@70 = spam. fuck off.
Remember the days when we would go from writeoffs to opening bell without foreigners fucking everything up?
Full stop.
“We need a merger partner or we’re not going to make it,” Mr. Mack told Mr. Pandit, according to two people briefed on the talks.
The man obviously would never make in on the WSOP
@52
Thanks for your views on moral hazard and the dilemma faced by Paulson, Bernanke, and Geithner. Honestly, I think we are waaaaay past the point of moral hazard. They should, on the one hand, save the big systemic risk banks and brokerages and save the remaining solvent financial institutions on the other.
If the US’s capital base is destroyed. It will take three generations and probably a world war to take the world out of this mess.
@57
Of course John Mack would prefer an American solution to his plight. But CITIC’s cash looks very hard to turn down.
I agree with you that Mack will hold out for a deal with the near-bankrupt Wachovia (The Fed and Treasury can prop them up later, no qualms there). If that somehow does not eventuate because Wachovia’s Bob Steel would rather save his old firm Goldman than to buy MS, MS will jump into the arms of CITIC.
What’s the future of Investment Banking now???
Will bankers become $100k a year slaves like everyone else now???
Should I go to med school now????
@70 – glad to know you can create phantom profits after the fact with options strategy. on that note, i personally bought 1200 puts at 20 two weeks ago and am now considering buying you with the profits to then sell you off in Thailand as a sex slave.
you and Tuh-tuh-Timmmmmaay should congregate in the pool and give eachother handjobs while Bess takes a nap on the front porch
@77, please do not go to med school. If you didn’t want to be a doctor until just now, I don’t want you to be my doctor.
@53 & 71
No, please don’t vote Obama: he has no clue what he is doing.
Please vote McCain/Palin.
Getting your email hacked is not fun and can happen to anyone. Just because Obama knows how to use his email and his email account has not been hacked does not make him qualified for presidency.
Vote McCain/Palin
This is bullshit. No way would the government allow Citic to buy a US bank, especially not during election season.
@79
Why not? Someone needs to give your wife a decent tit job.
Here’s the plan. After MS seal their marriage with CITIC, there’s only GS left. So everyone just short the shit of it since they’ll probably be too arrogant to seek a merger.
this is great but my skin is not at moist as it was before bsc and now i must go apply the oriental pearl cream to return to a healthy glow
Bloomberg:
Fuld sold shares that were worth $247 million a year and a half ago for less than $500,000 this week after he failed to find a buyer for his firm.
The 62-year-old CEO sold 2.88 million Lehman shares in the last two days at a price of 16 cents to 30 cents, according to a regulatory filing today. He still holds 503,744 shares, the filing said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amhAWGlw71UA&refer=home
@83 you got that right, a goldman partner told me the other day there was no such thing as liquidity risk… I bought puts at 120 110 100 and 90. so far so good.
Everyone should be shorting Deutsche Bank
Germany’s Banks will be the next to fall!!
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=db
80, go back and read 53 again and then ask what year the election is.
-71
Too rong, didn’t lead.
from the inside, none of this confirmed or denied. What remains of this week will determine ms’ move.
people still holding some hope that an ms will come out unscathed.
+ lets not forget DW bought MS but its now MS. No big deal about wachovia xpt it being run by village people
#83
That’s what the fear is now. But Goldman should know who’s trying to fuck them because they are the largest Prime Broker in the industry. They can see the flow.
I think the scenario of counterparties cutting their exposures and trades with GS is very real now.
GS is the last of the Mohicans. The odds are against GS even if Paulson does everything within his power to ensure their survival.
@53 — If you think lefties posting personal e-mail and photos of Gov Palin’s family will help your cause, you’re sadly mistaken.
Now go follow The Messiah through all “57 states” and listen to his solutions for “American Insurance Group.”
@7 unfortunately, it will be both.
@52 — If you’re going to copy-and-paste 45 pages of text, shouldn’t you at least mention Nouriel Roubini, its author?
Or were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us?
- Will Hunting
@52 is right on the money, I don’t know why some of you guys are hating on him so hard
FUCK GOLDMAN
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Citic would be a good deal for MS. They have all the cash and none of the expertise to run and investment bank. Thus MS would get to run business as usual, except they’d be backed by the one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world. Plus they’d basically have a free pass to expand in China, a market they are already aggressively targeting.
@96
Not our fault you got fired from the mailroom after you got caught masturbating to pictures of little asian boys.
@80 — McCain can’t “use his email” because the vietcong smashed up his fingers, hands, and arms; he’s forced to dictate while someone else types his messages.
happy family asset management
SlashAndBurn @ 99
FUCK OFF YOU McCAIN LOVER!
Apply Gold Eagle medicated rub. Rinse. Repeat. You will feel better and your skin will be oh so soft.
5 am Tai-chi. Not mandatory but…
Hahaha. CITIC is 100% owned by the Chinese government. This would be yet another nationalization, only this time it’s the Chinese taxpayers left holding the bag. One world, one communist dream.
Great! Now all the Morgan Stanley Buildings will have restaurants in them with high quality Yang Chow Fried Rice and sweet and sour pork.
Why don’t we just default on everything and start over. Seriously, it is getting very difficult to follow this and it is really becoming a bad “soap opera”.
Look, other nations have done this and they are fine now. We’ll just make an announcement, at the UN maybe, that, henceforth we are defaulting and resetting back to the beginning. Would be nice to buy a house in the teens and a loaf of bread for a quarter.
we wuv morgan shanley long time!
@105 – is that you Tyler Durden?
Hide your dogs.
@99
Fuck off you palin stalker!
#103
That’s why Beijing will veto CITIC. One of the nasty unintended consequences of the Lehman debacle is that it has shown all buyers that these firms could be scooped up for a song after the bankruptcy filing.
#104
Yang Chow Fried Rice, Sweet & Sour Pork are better than nothing. But I think the MS cafeterias will be empty for a very long time before Chinese cuisine will be served. Wink Wink!
Aww great, just what we need… more dirty fawkin’ chinks. Will they wear pijamas to the official closing? Will mack shake a hand that’s just been diggin? Stay tuned to find out.
#105
Pol Pot did exactly what you suggested when he took over Cambodia. And we all know how many millions of people died from his regime.
Actually the chinese will add happy ending rub and tug massage parlors, cheap quality chinese restaurants and dry cleaning services in all of the morgan stanley buildings!!
ALL OF THE GREATEST MINDS IN BANKING WILL WORK AT MORGAN STANLEY NOW!!
The Chinese have the US by its balls
@#59/Kent Brockman
Thanks for the laugh
New MS cafeteria:
http://www.msfn.org/board/No-We-no-see-cat-of-yours-t100454.html
#111
Pijamas are better than no clothes at all. That is if the Pijamas are willing to do a deal at all.
Like old Warren Buffett said, “we will find out who’s swimming naked when the tide goes out”. Morgan Stanley has been swimming naked and they need someone to throw them a towel.
Go back to Louisiana and drive that mule you ignorant son of a bitch.
@114: Of course they do. These are the guys who wrote the book on the art of war. Literally.
Golden Phoenix Mutual Funds
sold in 88 share increments
you buy now!
Have heard the “carry trade” mentioned. What is that?
# 41
In emerging markets, tell me what democracy has done to countries like Philippines, Thailand and even India to name a few in terms of their economy and peace. It looks to me that bombings is part of their lives.
#120
The latest carry trade:
The Treasury is helping the Federal Reserve to raise funds at 2% interest to lend to AIG at LIBOR+850bps.
@121
???
Thailand, Philippines and India have the best brothels in the world!!
Wercome to Shity Bank. Wourd you rike to open a Shity savings account or take out a Shity mortgage?
We need to nationalize all banks and declare null and void all debt (govn’t or private) owned by foreigners. Russia got away with it in 1998, why can’t we have our one slight screw up now?
#124
Or you can have:
Welcome to Citi Bank. We are unable to provide you with any service at this time because we are undergoing some financial difficulties. We apologise for any inconvenience caused. We hope to be of assistance to you with your banking needs once we have emerge from bankruptcy.
Punk Ass!
Why are the “hot topics” on this site still Bond Insurers…Business School…Banking Culture…Steve Schwarzman?
I see Business School (if you actually think we are going to survive and you have a 2 year payback period), but the others seem pretty, pretty irrelevant to me.
@126
Guessing you don’t watch South Park.
@125
Doesn’t the UK do it once every 40 years or so?
Take it like a man boys, your new Communist masters will pay you 1/20th of your current salaries and you are lucky if you get 5 bowls of rice as a bonus. NOW GET BACK TO CRUNCHING THOSE EXCEL NUMBERS AND YOU BETTER HAVE 10 PITCHBOOKS READY IN 4 HOURS OR YOUR GONNA GET WHIPPED.
There are a lot of short minded and hypocrites posters here. If the Fed takes over MS those hypocrites would cry like babies and say “waaaaa, I’m going to pay this for the rests of my life so are the grandchildren of my grandchildren, this is BS, waaa!
Let’s face the reality people this is not about you anymore.
I would not even let India takes over MS. It’s too smelly.
Citic to take over MS is nothing but good.
#125 & 129
Welshing on a debt is never a good idea for any nations let alone the “Leader of the Free World”.
People have a short memory. But it was not so long ago in 1972-1973 that the United States of America was under IMF supervision.
Russian officials did express regret privately for what they did in 1998. The Russians still rank along side with the South Americans and Africans in international bond circles.
There are too many Indians here. i can smell it.
I just made doodies. Usually when this happens so late at night, the markets go up big the next day.
But, maybe this is a black swan event. On that basis, I suggest that you sell.
“Get back in there you idiot and sell….sell.”
@132, besides its easier to just inflate the debt to Zero without declaring a default.
This just in – China is a hell of a a lot more totalitarian than communist. But keep making your communism jokes.
Deutsche Bank is the next good short, I’m gonna buy $50,000 worth of puts, already made a killing off LEH, WM and MS. Thanks asstards.
DB-UAN?
If you give MS to India, it will appoint Da Lai Lama as the CEO.hahaha!
Citic is so much better than WB – everybody knows it
#135
True, just monetise the debt. It is going to be a choice between hyperinflation or stagflation. I’d pick the former as monetary policies have proved to be useless in combating stagflation.
I haven’t analysed a bond indenture for a few good years now.
But I bet there are some clauses that would enable the Fed and the treasury to stop paying coupon and not declaring default. They will effectively become perpetual zeros.
Talk about covenant-lite loans in the boom years………………..
# 123
I can go the brothels of Phil and Thailand but not India..too dirty.
@141
They’re already perpetual Zero, they return less than inflation. The only thing we actually have to pay back is TIPS
me like the indian ladies….at least the americanized ones….who, ya know, live in america.
i thought i was just kidding when i said back in june that top bucket morgan stanley bankers were going to get wachovia shares as part of their comp. it may actually come true! time for deep value ops in the ensuing weeks. glad i got the fk out this summer.
I hope to god that MS/Wacko-via thing doesn’t happen. The great CLT can not become the center of the financial universe. Please. Somebody do something. The gigantic CLT is taking over.
Slave@#77…
“Will bankers become $100k a year slaves like everyone else now???”
Clown, seriously, try $45k to $55k a year slaves. That’s what commercial, retail bankers make. Thousands of them here in Delaware doing just that. That’s assuming you’ll even be able to get one of those jobs.
Welcome to ShitsVille.
While your entire industry is collapsing around you, and while the world’s financial system is in danger of becoming extinct next week, you idiots still think that bringing back the uptick rule is a bad idea and that less govt oversight regulation is still a good idea.
Too bad my own investments are taking serious hits too. Otherwise, I might be sneering at you.
The Guy from Delaware
A Chinese state-owned entity? Surely you jest.
#143
@141 here
You’re right again. I’m starting to hate you :)
delaware sucks
where is it anyway?
@134 Your brother’s dead…Fuck him!
i would have to argue that the uptick rule wouldn’t really be a solution. it may delay the problem by a couple of hours or so but in the world of electronic trading, that’s not gonna help much. if you look at the short interest level of a lot of these companies, it’s still helluva lot lower than etfc. it’s offers without bids and sht tons of puts bc of panic. and its hfs buying credit default swaps and then shorting that company (i mean come on, that’s ridiculous). the bigger solution is not having govt make stupid rules at inopportune times – biggest problem that initiated all of this was a fking accounting rule change that made every bank mark to market your holdings (during a bubble pop…) plus the fact that hanky panky is retarded and looking out to bailout bondholders but not instill any confidence in the equities market. smart govt regulation rarely gets put into place bc washington is run by a bunch of blind fools who are backward-looking. i mean both of our presidential candidates said that our fking economy is fundamentally strong. who the fk are they kidding? maybe the farmers in iowa but even their futures corn prices plummeted bc ethanol was so 2007.
Seriously though, you 2nd year bankers and analysts remind me of the overpaid coders at the end of the tech wreck.
What do you mean I can’t pull six figures writing javascript?
The amount of economic value you created is far less then your compensation. You all went to Ivy league schools so I am sure you understand the implications of this.
The silver lining is that the most highly talented of you will likely continue to succeed in life. Finance jobs will still continue to pay above the norm, although they will be fewer and far between, and the comp levels will come down.
If you are in it purely for the money, I know you can make six figures as an off shore oil worker these days.
@147
That’s in delaware not Manhattan.
Move to a real city.
What are the implications if the US defaults on its foreign held debt? Chinese government puts a Fatwa on the US’s head pulls out investment?
@153
Whatever, I think my 3 years at lehman and my Wharton degree will net me much more than $200k even in this market. I’m not working the fucking oil rigs with you lower class uneducated losers. Fuck the hell off.
The Guy from Delaware
I understand what you are saying.
But hear me out.
The Fed faces the risk of implementing these measures (such as uptick) and for these measures to not work. The Fed and the Treasury will then look impotent and lose whatever credibility they have left.
Take for example the decision not to do an emergency rate cut two days ago. What do you think would have happened to the Fed and the Treasury if Bernanke had cut Fed funds rate from 2% to say 1% and only to see the market to keep falling?
It’s a confidence issue now. Monetary policies and government policies in general don’t work well in combating market fears.
134 here again.
I think I ate something bad as I had to evacuate again. The only reason I share this is that it is usually indicative of an up day. But, as I discussed in 134, I think my bowels are just wrong tonight (in more ways than one.)
Anyway, I just thought I would share that my bowels are in line with futures expectations.
This is truly one bizarre fucking year if I can’t rely on my bowel movement theory of investment.
@156
Think about this for just one minute. What is it exactly you do for a living? Is what you are doing generating more than 200k for somebody else? Did they teach you common sense at Wharton?
In fairness to China and MS, the latter has branch in China and is making money.In fact MS is preparing to invest in real estate in China’s 1st tier cities and was able to get funding of around $10 billion from private investors and millionaire/billionaire citizens in China within a short period of time.
There’s nothing to worry or scared about China and MS deal if ended is true. It’s your ignorance people that you have to worry about and be scared of.If you are envious of China’s rise then something is wrong with you and in your own country.
I don’t think China is a still a communist country by anybody’s definition.
Morgan Stanley needs to survive and enough of tax payers money.
Is it just me or does it smell like MSG in here?
@155 we’ve been sleeping with China for the past 6 years. Hate to break the news to you but Uncle Sam and Ms. China are doing the nasty. If one gets called out, they both get called out. China doesn’t produce anything except crap fake junk for American’s to buy. Whatever your hand is touching right now, turn your head left, that thing, China made it. Who would buy such a piece of junk and be proud? Americans.
@156 Wharton? Are you kidding me? You’ll be singing the oscar Mayer Bologna song standing on a stool dressed like a tart catching dollars between your butt-cheeks. That’s what a Wharton degree at 3 years at Lehman gets you.
@151
Coleman may be the best character in the movie.
Winthorpe: “Oh my God, the Dukes will corner the entire frozen orange juice market.”
Valentine: “Unless somebody stops them.”
Coleman: “Or beats them to it…Eggnog?
@153. i’m #152 and 145. i would beg to differ than a 2nd year banker is overpaid. that is if you are a good 2nd year/3rd year banker i think you are actually underpaid. the deal can usually go on without a retarded year zero or year two or even a year three associate. that effectively saves the company hundreds of thousands of dollars. i thought that i was overpaid until i got this new job. then i realized the opportunity of capital and time (do you know what you other 22-25 yr old friends do on wednesday at 6pm? definitely not banging the same model (Excel). as a 3rd year banker, my vp and i ran a 500m sell side on our own basically (i know i know not a big deal), but we did end up getting paid 6mm in fees. don’t tell me my fking 190K compensation doesn’t justify this plus 3 other deals i completed last year. the firm is more than making money on the junior folks. yeah india can build the same models than harvard grads can, but you can’t bring that indian and get him to a C level meeting and not look like a complete fking idiot. also, you do learn a ton in banking especially if you apply the tools /lessons to investing, real world business applications. at the same time, 90% of the job by middle of 2nd year is monotonous crap. it has to be for the money because money = economic value created in one way or another + risk of spending 2/3 years of your best years losing close friends and good times. i just don’t think bottle service at 40 and married is the same thing as bottle service acting like a dbag banker with a bunch of other dbags finance people taking home slutty b&t chicks at tenjune when your 23 is the same thing.
More lines from Coleman:
Oh, hello Mr Duke, sir…
A what?
A scientific experiment.
Not at all, sir, no I…
It all sounds very……original.
Well, it’s your house and I work for you.
I shall make the necessary arrangements.
And a very good night to you, sir.
What a scumbag.
@163 “I’ll buy that for a dollar!”
153 stick your CPRCDR shit in your ass. Monkey stuff it may be this banking but it takes charcter , and wits. U can go back to wiping it oracle fucktard
@164
“i just don’t think bottle service at 40 and married is the same thing as bottle service acting like a dbag banker with a bunch of other dbags finance people taking home slutty b&t chicks at tenjune when your 23 is the same thing.”
Unfortunately, it’s tough to stay married as a banker :*(
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINPEK13574020080918?rpc=44
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/cic-says-has-not-received/story.aspx?guid=%7B5852432C-F0BC-43AA-83DB-5347C4BDD213%7D&dist=hpmp
citic says no.
cic says no.
cnbc making it up now.
Fuck the press. They always report shit!
@#157…
Thank you.
If the shorts need to be in possession of actual shares, if the market makers are not allowed to naked short, and if the uptick rule were reinstated, the shorts would surely be slowed down.
If that didn’t work, the SEC could then say, “Effective immediately, short selling of any securities is hereby prohibited until further notice.”
It’s either that or face the possibility of serious impairment to our system and to our way of life.
If none of that shit works, just close all the fucking financial markets “until further notice” and give the feds and Wall St some time to think and time to get some fresh air.
I have no ideas beyond what I’ve just said.
The Guy from Delaware
@164
How many of these deals are going to happen going forward? The financing for them simply is no longer available.
Already agreed finance jobs will continue to pay above the norm and that the best of you will continue to be successful. The best programmers from the dot com era are still making a ton of money working at Google.
I know a lot of bankers in their early 20s. Ninety percent would never get hired in non gogo times.
I guess I should probably quit CFA Level 2 and my MBA plans since everyone with a CFA and MBA is unemployed now!
Thank God! I wasting so much of my precious time
@172. Great point. no more 300mm deals.
NG trader at NYMEX here.
Everyone needs to take a deep breath. This is getting pathetic. The US is going fine in the long run. We are a transcontinental power with 2 of the 3 best natural ports in the world. We are the bread basket to the world. We own the best university system. Everyone comes here for the post-grad work. Stop being a bunch of whiners. Once Obama gets in everyone in the world will be talking about how great we are.
As for all you undereducated I-Bankers, welcome to retail banking, you all work for BofA and Wachovia now. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of people.
Good one NG trader. How has your trading been on the markets lately? It sucks to lose 30% in 2 weeks, doesn’t it?
“If that didn’t work, the SEC could then say, ‘Effective immediately, short selling of any securities is hereby prohibited until further notice.’”
Wow. I’m a Democrat who believes in regulation, but after a week of multiple nationalizations, what you suggest as a next possible step is just way too much for me.
Should we kill options trading next? How about we just outright ban selling? That way, we all just either hold what we own, or we buy more as shares are issued (though I gather that would count as “selling.”
Better yet, why don’t we just quit trading altogether.
Reminder: Paris Hilton earned 13 Million dollars this year and you have suck cock just for a measly paycheck.
Sucks not to be born rich.
Sucks to be you.
I’m Paris Hilton and I approved this message.
The Guy from Delware @ 171
#157 here
What makes anybody thinks an uptick will work in the current market environment?
Upticks only works in “normal” markets where stocks move up and down in random fashion. An uptick does not work when the stocks are in free fall. Paulson and Cox know this well and that’s why they have been hesitant about implementing the uptick.
You mention closing the markets until further notice. Yes, this is probably what will happen given the state of things. But ALL financial assets would become ILLIQUID overnight and the reputation of the US financial system will be in tatters by then and we may as well go on a long holiday.
Paulson, Bernanke, Cox, Geithner et al are all smart men. They have contemplated all these scenarios and if they can’t come up with something that works. We have very little chance of averting the crisis.
@156
You couldn’t handle working offshore oil rigs. Your dainty upper-middle class hands and your lack of sun exposure would render you a hazard on the platforms.
@176, 175 here.
This is what I do. Before I leave every day, I see how much I would gain/lose if NG went to $2 or $20. If that is unacceptable, I do something about it. This a bold, new idea called “risk management”. I’m thinking about trademarking it and then marketing it to the large investment and commercial banks.
well if the china things a rumor, The worst thing Morgan Stanley could do to itself is merge with Wachovia. Wachovia has 100 billion dollars worth of toxic mortgages. They’d be jumping on the titanic.
@181,
Interesting concept this risk management concept that you discuss. Exactly how does it work?
Call me to discuss.
Yours,
D.Fuld
@160: “In fact MS is preparing to invest in real estate in China’s 1st tier cities”
You gotta be fucking kidding me. That’s like preparing to invest in subprime loans in 2005. When will these fucks learn.
You better get while the gettin’ is good bitches. Hurry up and grab your tin up and head over to the discount window. Cerberus has already got theirs out…. better spend it quick though before inflation kicks in, might I suggest investing iPhones, technology has at least 18 months before its worthless.
Federal Aid to Detroit Seems Likely
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
WASHINGTON — After a series of government interventions in the private markets, one seemingly more astonishing than the next, lawmakers found themselves confronted on Wednesday with the question of when and where to draw the line on future aid.
But with billions of dollars in financial backing already authorized for Wall Street, and with Election Day fast approaching, Congressional leaders seemed uninterested in denying help to large employers of blue-collar Americans.
Even as lawmakers in both parties unleashed a barrage of questions about the wisdom of a government rescue for the American International Group, support seemed to be growing quickly on Capitol Hill for $25 billion in loan guarantees to assist the ailing auto industry.
Both presidential candidates, Senator John McCain of Arizona and Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, have voiced support for the loan guarantees — an unsurprising stance given the critical importance of the main auto-producing states, Michigan and Ohio, to the electoral map this fall.
The chief executives of the three big American automakers — General Motors, Ford and Chrysler — met on Wednesday afternoon with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
When they emerged, they expressed optimism that the loan guarantees would be included as part of a budget resolution that is needed to finance government operations through the end of the year.
“The support that we got was again very encouraging,” said Robert L. Nardelli, the chairman of Chrysler. “The conversations I have had all day on the Hill have been very encouraging, very candid, very straightforward and so as we conclude the day, I would say it was successful.”
Alan R. Mulally, the chief executive of Ford, was even more upbeat. “It was a great day,” he said. When a reporter asked what Mr. Mulally might say to people who viewed the loan guarantees as a bailout, he replied in a chipper voice, “I would characterize it as an enabler.”
Ms. Pelosi sharply criticized the Bush administration on Wednesday over the $85 billion bailout of A.I.G., saying it was evidence of mismanagement by President Bush. But she expressed strong support for the automakers’ loan guarantees, which would be used to help the companies meet new fuel efficiency standards that Congress adopted last year.
“We see that as a way to rebuild and strengthen the technological base of America,” Ms. Pelosi said at a news conference in the Capitol. “It would certainly help people in the auto industry, but it’s not only about the auto industry, it’s about the auto industry, it’s about our economy, it’s about America’s work force.”
She added: “We consider this a major investment in innovation.”
Republican Congressional leaders, too, said they were in favor of helping the automakers. Representative Adam Putnam of Florida, the third-ranking House Republican, said at a news conference that it was up to auto executives to convince lawmakers of the need for government assistance.
“It’s incumbent on them to make the case to Congress that it is a loan guarantee, that it is a wise investment of taxpayer dollars, and I think that they are on the Hill this week making that case,” Mr. Putnam said. “The reports that I have heard from my colleagues is that they have been fairly persuasive.”
The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, expressed his own support for aid to the automakers at a news conference on Wednesday morning. Mr. Reid said the loan guarantees, which would cost taxpayers $7.5 billion, were needed.
“I think it’s extremely important that we try to do something,” he said. “These are jobs. These are cars that we should be selling — or manufacturing in America, not someplace else.”
Still, some fiscal conservatives reacted angrily to the prospect of more taxpayer money being used to prop up private companies.
“The federal government’s propensity to bail out failing companies in struggling industries ought to be troubling to all taxpayers,” said Representative Jeff Flake, Republican of Arizona. “Aside from the fiscal impact of spending money that the federal government doesn’t have, these bailouts will likely have the opposite of their intended effect.”
Mr. Flake added: “Federal bailouts may stave off short-term economic damage, but the long-term economic outlook will be much worse if the market is not allowed to make its own adjustments. While the Bush administration certainly shares blame for these bailouts, this Congress may designate itself as the ‘Bailout Congress’ if we follow through on a rumored bailout of the auto industry.”
But such skepticism was likely to be overshadowed by the huge stakes in the presidential race. Mr. McCain, the Republican nominee, had seemed cool to the idea of loans for the auto industry last month, but at a campaign stop on Wednesday at an auto plant in Orion, Mich., he sounded like a staunch supporter.
“It’s great to be here today with the assembly workers of this G.M. plant,” he said. “I’m here to send a message to Washington and Wall Street: We are not going to leave the workers here in Michigan hung out to dry while we give billions in taxpayer dollars to Wall Street. It is time to get our auto industry back on its feet. It’s time for a new generation of cars and for loans to build the facilities that will make them.”
for the record…
me rikey!
@184 – you retard, they were one of the earliest investors in Asia and they are actually calling the peak and exiting those major cities now after making a killing.
China needs us so bad. If we stop buying their tainted goods they easily return to the warring-states period of Sun-Tzu. That country is one bad shipment of milk away fro civil war.
@188 – yea and if they stop buying the dollar we would all be on our knees begging for pennies.
@189
If they stop buying dollars they’d starve to death in week. Unless you can eat led coated plastics toys.
#157@#179…
TGFD here. Up late tonite, can’t sleep. Thank you again.
As I said in my @#171 post, I don’t have any Ideas beyond what I’ve suggested. I’m fresh out of any more. With uptick in place, though, one can’t short in a “free fall” until there’s an ‘uptick’. Is this not so?
One other thing too. People have been complaining for months about that uptick rule issue. My Congressman, Mike Castle (R)Del. wrote Cox a letter complaining about it back in June. Cox answered, “no evidence that shorts are disturbing the markets.”
Cox has had plenty of time. I don’t think he’s a smart man at all. What I think is that Cox has been listening to his hedge-fund friends too much and having too many lunch dates with pretty hedge-fund lobbysts. In short, I think Cox is a fucking creep. He should be fired.
I don’t have anything else.
The Guy from Delaware
#188
The Americans got the better end of the bargain.
You morons send them fraudulent securities like Freddie and Fannie bonds and the Chinese send you tainted toys (designed by American morons) in return.
Don’t get mad, drink a cool-aid.
Morgan Stanley is a dead firm walking, the street will have no mercy for them or their stock. MS is a good easy money making call, Just load up on puts and make a quick killing.
@193
you stupid fuck, For every put you buy the market makers buy 100 shares to hedge themselves. Read a fucking book.
#191 TGFD
Program trading makes a mockery of the uptick rule. They engineer their own upticks and then short the hell out of a stock.
Let’s not worry about it. Paulson, Geithner, Cox, and Bernanke will work something out.
Good Night and Good Luck
Clown@#193…
You are exactly the kind of person the SEC should be thinking about. You know, thinking about how to ‘fuck you where you breathe’.
The Guy from Delaware
The day of reckoning will come for the hedge funds if the SEC does get the regulatory power it needs to force hedge funds to disclose their short holdings.
But I doubt it would happen anytime so. Also, the hedge funds can just set up new offshore entities to do the shorts.
The Guy from Delaware
#157, 179, 191 here
Go easy old mate!
Delaware:
The guy’s an idiot. If he had enough capital he’d drive himself broke. You need to buy at the money call options and deep OTM puts so that the market makers short the shares to hedge the calls but don’t hedge the puts. And you need to keep doing it as the share price falls so that their market maker’s hedging doesn’t push shares back up once the shares do start to fall.
Too clever by half 193 go back to Fiance 101, try again next crisis.
@156: As a business owner, here’s my take on your credentials:
You worked for a dump like LEH that went out of business because its executives couldn’t execute. Hmm, did you contribute to its failure, or was hiring you just one more example of the firm’s inability to make good choices?
Either way, it’s pretty clear that your elite (snort) Wharton education didn’t do much for your ability to judge the direction a firm is going in – even when you were actually employed by the firm. You spent three years working for the firm and now find yourself blindsided and unemployed? That doesn’t exactly translate to “trust this guy with your business” in my book…
You seem to think uneducated people are lower class – that’s pretty funny considering most of my friends who’ve started and sold their own businesses never actually went to college. I think maybe two guys I know, out of ten or so, actually graduated from a college. Of course, that’s all hard for a guy like you to understand, because you’ll never actually own and run your own business.
By the way, speaking as someone who actually knows a little about the oil industry, the average roustabout on an offshore rig is given far more responsibility than any business owner is ever going to trust you with.
Enjoy the job hunting – a little dose of reality might be good for you.
@#197/@#195…
Thank you for your optimism in 195:
“Let’s not worry about it. Paulson, Geithner, Cox, and Bernanke will work something out.”
As I’ve said on DB a number of times, I’m one of the early ‘boomers’, and I’ll be 60 in late December. I’m pretty much retired and looking forward to living off my ‘nest egg’ come next year.
It’s kind of sad to think that if what you say is true, and I hope that it is, much of my future financial well being may depend on what those 4 men can “work out” over the next few days.
I’m going to sleep in late in the morning. Tired, you know.
The Guy from Delaware
p.s. TGFD has left the building.
(a) McCain/Palin will win. 7 months thereafter the old man will succumb to an undisclosed ailment. 2 years later we all will be traveling in carriages. On the upside, it’s an environmentally friendly means of transportation.
(b) Obama/Biden will win. The young man will not succumb to anything but will have the audacity to hope. 2 years later we all will be traveling in carriages. On the upside, it’s an environmentally friendly means of transportation.
(c) Choose between (a) and (b)
199 = rejected by every reputable business school, does not own a business, knows jackshit about the oil industry – not that anyone would think differently.
After I read this article I felt like Wall Street is a veritable hamster on a treadmill:
September 18, 2008
“The Liquidation Trap”
Thomas Palley:
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/09/the-liquidation.html
All of that does not matter. What matter is the ticker. Just trade this market.
If it gaps down tomorrow, buy it, if it opens where it closed today, buy immediately after yesterday’s low is broken (if broken in early hours of trading) by one 1/5 of the range.
This is assuming you will take your profits today.
Nasdaq 100 is the area most well positioned for an up move.
http://financialtraders.blogspot.com
@204. You fucking monkey you know futures expire Friday right?
Hey, didn’t Jimmy Cayne make a trip to China in fall of 2007 to get Citic to invest in Bear Stearns? He called it “the deal of a lifetime.”
Unfortunately, Citic never got its act together (political intrigue within China) and never consummated the deal, neither getting a “stake” in Bear Stearns, nor giving them any money.
Going to China to make a deal with Citic is in reality making an appointment in Samarra.
@205: do you have a fucking idea whom you are up to? I have never failed in more than a year nailing any top and bottom call. Period.
Check it up on the blog, and on elitetrader. Anyone who went againt me lost . Check riskfreetrading on elitetrader forum, and you fucking monkey will understand who I am.
Lastest monkeys like you went again my nailing at the absolute top of: EUR/USD, EUR/JPY, Nasdaq-100 (50 times in a row), MCD, AIG, LEH, OIL, ….
Google this, and see the nailing of the tops and bottom, similar to kicking you in you lower dirty fucking ass.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=nq+trading&btnG=Search
#207
Who’s talking from his nether regions now?
Punk Ass!
morgan is not short for Morgan Stanley on the street..it’s short for JPMorgan
Well, it was CIC not CITIC. Bad CNBC. Finally, whoever is including Cox in the list of smart men that’s going to save us, please reconsider. That guy is not smart. He’s a puppet.
Moo Shu Stanley.
Wonder if they will deliver?
Maybe they will offer dry cleaning and tailoring services too.
(On a serious note, didn’t they learn *anything* from the brilliant Dean Witter debacle??)
This market is bat-shit crazy.
@211:
Seriously Stan O’Neal got fired for even considering doing what Johns Thain & Mack (will)have done. So what exactly was the point of paying Stan $150mn is severance and John $200mn in compensation just to so that Merrill would be based one block over in Charlotte? The way I see it Stan was a visionary if they’d done the deal last October they’d be buying Goldman right now.
“Moo Shu Stanley — We Deliver!”
LOL! Line of the night !!!
@212 — Good point. Don’t even get me started on the compensation for any of these CEOs and senior staff. It is an atrocity.
Anyone who runs a company into the ground like this should not be able to walk away with millions of dollars.
I hope I don’t get flamed for asking this, but I seriously do not understand what brought all of this on so suddenly and why the firms have to decide their fate within 24-36 hours. *I Know* the broader issues … my question is more about what was the immediate catalyst that triggered the specific events this week when the problems have been known for the past 13 months.
Lehman was a given and the downgrades by the ratings agencies explains AIG, but what has prompted the urgency of Morgan Stanley shopping itself?
It is almost as thought a group of traders is systematically targeting Wall Street firm by firm.
Freddie/Fannie were put into conservatorship. This was sufficiently surprising for the market that people who were said to have exposure to the preferred traded down. Lehman was already in a weakened state, like transplant patient in Flu season. Lehman traded down just a little too much…. that was it. They were up 17% that morning and finished significantly down for the day.
The short tellers sensed weakness and piled on. Dick Fuld came out with his idiot restructuring. When that didn’t halt the slide the game was up. A short seller could easily have made 10x their money on lehman. Then they started looking for other similar investments.
Merrill stated to crack, and AIG and WaMu were alread limping. The shorts piled on again. Again shares fell too much for people to be comfortable trading with them, and the cycle repeated. John Thain was smart enough to see what was going on and run for cover.
John Mack and Lloyd are arrogant enough to think GS and MS are a breed apart. But now the short sellers fresh with their profits from AIG, Lehman and WaMu had plenty of capital to shoot at Morgan Stanley and Goldman.
Which brings us to today. Its only been 8 business days since Freddie and Fannie went under.
Ultimatley the banks balance sheets are black boxes and no one knows what they’re worth. So… they use the share price and the CDS as a proxy for the health of company. The shorts took advantage of this. Once the shares were knocked down some abitrarily large amount, people’s confidence was shaken and the cylce would start.
However, the shorts did not load up all of the I-Banks with shitty assets that no one can value nor did the shorts force the banks establish a business model that requires raising new capital everday. Absent either one of those two scenarios the ibanks would be fine. Also they could have stayed private partnerships.
So in reality the ibanks were undone by their own greed and short sightedness, same old story.
All you NY IB Douchebags are either gonna work for Crackers or Chinks – or be on your Ass.
HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA
You worthless shitheels are getting your comeuppance.
How’s it feel??
@14,81 – Here’s why the government cares. If MS fucks over the Chinese SWF the way Lehman tried to fuck over Barclays, the Brits revenge was to watch LEH go bankrupt, and then pick up the pieces for next to nothing. The Chinese revenge will be to stop buying US treasuries.
Think of it – They’re all puffed up by coming in second in the real Olympics, and first in the Para-olympics. The whole world gushed all over them. Now they see the Russian system completely fucked up (are the Reds even gonna open up today?), and the US system reeling. Start selling Treasuries, and they can bring the dollar index down to 50 in two days. Then who will be cock of the walk?
Can’t afford to piss them off; either don’t enter into negotiations, or know that if things get serious, you’ll have to make the deal. There is no middle way.
Morgan will be ruled by Chineese corporation.
Now, this is ironic and real funny.
NDX (nasdaq 100) is now at 1626. We just called it a bottom or near bottom for today.
It has been foretold!
http://financialtraders.blogspot.com
# 206
it probably was a blessing in disguise for CITIC. You may either thank or blame CIFIUS. I guess for CITIC its the former.
Genius@#219…
Posted by guest, Sep 18, 2008 11:30AM
“NDX (nasdaq 100) is now at 1626. We just called it a bottom or near bottom for today.”
“It has been foretold!”
Hey genius, NDX now at 1606.
The Guy from Delaware
#221: NDX is now above 1700! More than 5% points up where we called it. The mighty blog has done it again (predicted in above posts, and even last night).
It has been foretold! And fullfilled, as usual!
http://financialtraders.blogspot.com
#164 Somewhat off topic, but I thought this was amusing, re bottle service:
“Have you heard? Rich bankers in New York, the poncy swindlers who keep us out of Manhattan after sundown (they’ve discovered the LES!), are becoming a tad less rich. Boo hoo. And with the money goes the ridiculous luxuries it buys. No more willowy blonds who don’t mind not kissing during sex, no more bespoke wingtips and, according to various nightlife connoisseurs, no more fucking bottle service. Huzzah!
In deference to those kind, decent human beings who know nothing of the favorite pastime of New York’s most detestable pricks, bottle service is a practice in which scantily clad club waitresses bring overpriced bottles of vodka to tables of wealthy, hooting clowns who like rap music but hate black people….”
http://www.jossip.com/bottle-service-killed-new-york-20080916/
#221: NDX is now above 1700! More than 5% points up where we called it. The mighty blog has done it again (predicted in above posts, and even last night).
It has been foretold! And fullfilled, as usual!
http://financialtraders.blogspot.com
I had a Chinese girl play with my penis once near Wall Street… For only $50, nonoe og the stupid massage Bull Shit, instead she just said you have beautiful cock, I make you cum twice for $50 and she did just that… So you guys are surprised they are taking over Wall Street??? She just talks about how much I Cum and how beautiful my cock is, as she plays and plays and plays with it… Ahhh, sooo Good!!!