Casual conversations over last few days reveal that the selection of Alaskan governor Sarah Palin as John McCain's running mate was not a popular choice on Wall Street. Not many who work at investment firms seem able to avoid mentioning that she was the mayor of Wasilla, a place which strikes many as more foreign to Wall Street than, say, Beijing.
When pressed for an explanation and supplied with a few cocktails, some of those we talked with admitted that they suspected Palin wouldn't like them very much. Her life seems almost a repudiation of the aspirations and achievements of so many Wall Streeters. She is married to a man whose job involves having a strong back, working in oil and fishing. He earns a good-enough living doing this and his recreation time is spent on snow machines (not, as we would have said, snow mobiles), hunting and exploring the wilderness. No rounds at Shinnecock for the Palins.
What's more, she has so many children, one of whom is already having a child. It's like the Palins are trying not only to prove that they can enjoy a life without conference rooms, spreadsheets, beach houses and bespoke shirts. They're outbreeding those of us whose lives are characterized by those things. Even Wall Street's former uber-mother, Zoe Cruz, only managed to produce three offspring.
The Wall Street reaction to Palin illustrates more than class snobbery. It illustrates an important political dynamic that is commonly overlooked. We often hear pundits discuss the importance of "likeability" of a candidate for public office. But the truly more influential characteristic is the opposite: people judge candidates by their evaluations of how much the candidate would like them. Obama's supporters imagine that they'd get along fine with Obama, that he would enjoy spending time in their company. Palin's detractors suspect she might not even to respond to an invitation to their party, and if she did show up she'd be full of contempt. We're all narcissists in politics.
Of course, much of America may feel differently about Palin. Tired of politicos who often exude contempt for people with blue-collar jobs and old fashioned moral perspectives, they may finally have a candidate who would like them. We expect that Palin will go out of her way tonight, when she speaks at the Republican convention, to show these Americans that she really does like them.






Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:20AM
Nothing wrong with that. I work for Citi and I can't stand Wall Street types.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:22AM
rather long, carney smells
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:23AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she'd really enjoy being at my gangbang party. Go VPILF!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:25AM
Also, she will TRULY take on the entrenched corporate interests. None of the 'you rub my back, I rub yours' stuff.
The leftist plan to tag on windfall taxes only on oil companies is ridiculous. That however does not take away from the fact that oil companies also utilize the big boys network to slide in a lot of favors and breaks their way. Just like a lot of wall st banks use the govt when convenient. What do you think does the esteemed gentleman with not defined post do at Citi other than grease the wheels to get favors for Citi?
She is what the republican party was supposed to be. The party was instead taken over by the 'compassionate' big government types who not only forwarded their own interests but sullied the small government ideology and gave the democrats plentty of ammo.
The party needs to go back to folks like palin, jindal, sanford and demint who actually believe in fiscal conservstism and small government and not folks like delay who simply use it as a political slogan.
Good for her if the country club types dont like her.
Posted by cheesedog , Sep 03, 2008 11:27AM
My favorite comment about her:
"She's not bad looking. She looks like one of those women in the Van Halen videos who takes off her glasses, shakes out her hair, and then all of a sudden, she's in high heels and a bikini. All of a sudden, I am FOR drilling in Alaska." --Jimmy Kimmel
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:29AM
well written and insightful.
seriously.
(I can't stand anyone involved with capital markets or investing, including myself.)
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:31AM
4 Yeah, but too bad Palin Jindal et al are also religious nut cases. So much for being libertarian.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:37AM
actually here's a way she is like most people on wall street. She'll put her personal ambition ahead of her kids...whats worse than being 17 and knocked up? being 17 and knocked up and your mom ensuring you'll be on national tv...
Posted by GinNTonic , Sep 03, 2008 11:39AM
@7
As long as they don't impose their beleifs on me, they can be pagans for all I care.
Posted by strangebrew , Sep 03, 2008 11:43AM
Obana and the rest of the Socialists love Wall Streeters and their big paychecks though right? It's great how they come for your campaign donations and then villify the fact that you are succesful.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:45AM
@9 Except they have every desire to impose their beliefs on you.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:47AM
As a person who has raised a child and has also spent considerable time in advocacy for the disabled, I don't particularly care if Sarah Palin would like me. I don't like her.
Her comments about choosing to have a baby with Down Syndrome are very insensitive to those who have chosen to terminate their pregnancies after a negative amniocentesis. Amniocentesis has become an established part of prenatal care for older mothers for 35 years, and its purpose is to give pregnant women the information to make a choice. The vast majority of women choose to terminate the pregnancy after a negative amniocentesis. Anyone informed about raising a child with a serious disability such as Down Syndrome knows that severe financial strain and the stress that comes with helping the child through extra medical procedures and special education are unavoidable parts of the child rearing process. It's very difficult to find informed doctors and educators, let alone care givers. The addition of a disabled child to a family is frequently accompanied by a break-up in the marriage, and a single woman is left to cope with all the burdens.
Women who receive inadequate prenatal care and give birth to a Down Syndrome child sometimes abandon the child in frustration. Our state institutions are full of abandoned Down Syndrome children who grow into adults with a very limited future. This hidden population never knew their family.
Thinking that giving birth to a Down Syndrome child gives someone extra moral status or brings someone closer to God denies the reality regularly experienced by parents and physicians. I have no quarrel with women who reject abortion and give birth to a Down Syndrome child, and successfully deal with the challenges of raising such a child. However, it is a personal decision. That personal choice should not be imposed as a moral duty on every woman. Established medical practices should not be undermined.
Having once had a seventeen daughter, I can assure you I would not have been pleased if she had become accidentally pregnant and decided to keep the child. However, I would find a way to stand by her during the experience. The last thing I would have done would have been to run for national political office and exposed her to the degradation of the media. National notoriety is not going to promote future emotional stability for the teen-ager. Also, an early marriage made because of the pregnancy is not going to help the girl establish her own identity. And what about education for the parents? The educational process is inalterably disrupted by a pregnancy, but forcing the young people into marriage only makes the prospect of each finishing their education much more unlikely.
I don't think these are extreme views. I would hope that other responsible people share them. Raising children calls for a lot of love and patience. Unfortunately, I don't think Sarah Palin is even paying attention.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:49AM
@4 you beat off to Buchanan '88 campaign posters don't you.
Posted by strangebrew , Sep 03, 2008 11:51AM
@11, and the Democrats don't have a desire to impose their beliefs on the the populace? What world do you live in?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:52AM
Does anyone know if Palin likes mayo?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:53AM
11 Agree totally. Pro choice for example means you can or cannot have an abortion, whatever you choose. Not so for pro life.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:54AM
Caribou Barbie lobbied for earmarks, i.e money for dumb projects in Alaska and was for the bridge to nowhere initially and still kept the money instead of returning to the congress. Crazy vindictive and believes war on iraq and natural gas pipeline is Gods will. Wants to cancel sex ed, promote creationism (Jesus had dinosaurs for pets), censor public library,etc. Total Whack job along hot tempered Mcnasty in control of red button. Very scary!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:54AM
@13 The Democrats have a desire to impose their religious beliefs on us? Really?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:56AM
advocate = yenta
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:58AM
@12: "The vast majority of women choose to terminate the pregnancy after a negative amniocentesis."
Source?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 11:59AM
@12
You are a filthy Nazi eugenicist. On the list of prenatal "maladies", Down's Syndrome is pretty mild. Spina bifida or Tay-Sachs would be worth terminating a pregnancy over...
Let's be honest, most parents who abort babies with Down's do so for selfish reasons.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:00PM
We need to elevate the discussion here. Anyone else think her husband is hot, in a lets you and me go up to the cabin and hang in front of the fire in our thermal underwear kind of way? GAnalYst
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:01PM
i really hate to see inbred and DS people (republicans) in midwest and south making decisions for rest of us living on the coasts (even though we provide huge majority of federal tax revenues)!
Posted by strangebrew , Sep 03, 2008 12:04PM
@18. 8 years of GWB, and I don't see anyone being forced to go to Church every Sunday. McLame is no where near the Bible thumper that W is. What are you so afraid of?
The Democrats have a desire to change the way I live my life in far more concrete ways than anyone on the right is proposing.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:05PM
# 15 you are reckless for asking such a personal querey. Be professional she has stated over and over that she prefers the only Mayonnaise in the world Namely Hellman's. sincerely yours, Vince Offer.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:05PM
# 15 you are reckless for asking such a personal querey. Be professional she has stated over and over that she prefers the only Mayonnaise in the world Namely Hellman's. sincerely yours, Vince Offer.
Posted by diablo , Sep 03, 2008 12:05PM
Palin embraces the ultra right-wing Christian fundamentalists of the likes of Dobson. She's good enough for him so he can now publicly be supporting McCain. That's enough for Wall Street to pretty much not care about her.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:06PM
23 Good one. And it was the choice of SP that brought those thoughts to the forefront. What ever happened to the good guy McCain. Someone convinced him that in order to win he needed to sell his soul to the crazies in his party. I'm totally disappointed.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:07PM
@12,
so killing a child because it is sick is a good thing?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:08PM
i think she's hot.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:09PM
The religious right wants to impose its moral views on us. They have been trying to do so for many years now but apparently haven't been very successful.
The left - on the other hand - wants to impose a LOT more than its 'religious' views on us. Hos is it that there is always a kneejerk reaction to one kind of impingement on freedom whereas not a peep about the other kind? Obama wants to INCREASE funding for faith based initiative - the funding I presume going to the likes of jeremiah wright. Does that man stand for 'freedom' of any kind? Does 'eomployees free choice act' banning secret ballots (sponsored by obama) further the cause of any kind of freedom?
I also do not think that Palin and Jindal can outright be tagger as 'religious nuts'. Last I checked, non believers were not being deported or murdered in their state. However, in all the cities ruled by the 'socialist nuts' people's food habits, travel habits and much more if already being controlled. How is closing off portions of the city to cars and forcing everyone to bike not imposing your beliefs on others?
#12 said "Raising children calls for a lot of love and patience. Unfortunately, I don't think Sarah Palin is even paying attention. "
I would have appreciated the view had I heard similar noises when John Edwards was running for president as father of 2 young kids and a dying wife. Or when Biden was being sworn in with 2 motherless infants by his side. Or when Al gore's son was found doing dope. Or when the entire kennedy clan was one gigantic intra-familial clusterfuck.
In those cases, it is all fine. Of course a man is not supposed to do anything other than earn money for the family and the woman is supposed to care for the family, right?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:09PM
i thought i heard her say "nuclear" in a weird way. pulled my vote.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:09PM
I agree with 8....total dick move re the daughter
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:09PM
what are DS people?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:14PM
@ 34 look in a mirror...
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:15PM
"closing a portion of the city to cars" simply recognizes that cars are very burdensome to society as a whole and that the people who operate them are not paying their fair share of that burden. If you doubt me, consider why we're in Iraq: not solely, but in large part, to keep the oil flowing. The alterntive would be to tax fuel at a fair rate. Like they do in the rest of the world.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:15PM
# 28 fuck you ass kisser!!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:16PM
ok now what, 35.
Posted by beentheredonethat , Sep 03, 2008 12:18PM
I am both amused and appalled by the comments of 11:47. There is a widening belief in this country that even for some who are pro-choice, the days of abortion on demand are nearly over. No longer can the nihilists pretend having a fetus vacuumed out of their uterus is the moral equivalent of a tooth extraction. To those of us who know Down syndrome children and adults, it is an abominable excuse to terminate a life, and the Palin's will have a most rewarding experience raising that child. The fact the daughter will have the baby and be married is the way things used to be before the yuppie crowd re-wrote the rules to suit their hedonistic indulgences, including sex without responsibility. The reason the attacks from the left are so venomous against Palin is that she proves them wrong on everything from abortion to drilling. Wait until Nov. 4th. A great many people are going to be surprised.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:18PM
i'm hoping to be the male monica lewinsky to sarah palin. she is hot.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:19PM
@23, how about giving those inbred midwesterners a 3/5 vote? And then maybe their employers can vote for them by proxy instead? does that sound fair? oh, wait didn't we already do something like that?
This is a democracy. It's not without problems. Suck it up and spend some time educating those people instead of whining about them. They are, after all, Americans too.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:20PM
palintology-- we don't need those extinct values broght back to life...
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:20PM
DS People = 'tards?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:27PM
39 I'm actually appalled to think that you, with your high moral tone, could be among those working in my midst. Looks to me like Bristol Palin is being railroaded into marrying her beau. So much for rewards.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:28PM
#24 had the best comment. Couldn't say it any better.
#12 said - ".. raising a child with a serious disability ..severe financial strain .. stress ... difficult to find informed doctors and educators.. accompanied by a break-up in the...'
Lets see. The same can apply to a kid who develops some congenital defect after birth. Or through an accident. So are you suggesting that all disables people, paraplegics, quadriplegics, older people suffering from mental illness, developmentally challenged kids etc should be killed - as all the reasons above apply to them?
Wow. And you call yourself reasonable?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:28PM
Isn't Slick Willie from Arkansas?
Al Gore is from Tennessee.
Jimmy Carter is from Georgia.
Damn even, Reagan grew up in Illinois.
You have to go all the way back to Nixon (*cough* crook) and then to JFK to get someone who served in office who wasn't linked in some way to the South or Midwest.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:32PM
Whereas great people like Charles Rangel are from the awesome coastal state of New York.
Posted by Suits , Sep 03, 2008 12:32PM
I've been to Wasilla. The manager of the local Fred Meyers is more qualified to be VP.
Posted by beentheredonethat , Sep 03, 2008 12:38PM
44-On what basis do you determine she is being railroaded? The pregnancy could have been terminated without her parents ever knowing a thing. For a marriage to occur, there needs to be two. The "beau" could easily have declined. What possible leverage does anyone have over a 17 year old guy who doesn't want to be married? Recall the pregancy occurred five months before the mother was famous. It is because you have been so throughly indoctrinated by Naral's abortion politics, you don't even consider there is an alternative to the vacuum.
Posted by Debter , Sep 03, 2008 12:38PM
2007 Tax Revs, highest to lowest
Item Total taxes
United States 750,282,072
California 114,736,981
New York 63,161,582
Texas 40,314,714
Florida 35,738,291
Pennsylvania 30,837,657
Illinois 29,516,656
New Jersey 29,106,788
Ohio 24,810,567
Michigan 23,848,753
North Carolina 22,612,798
Massachusetts 20,663,664
Virginia 18,972,392
Georgia 18,636,905
Minnesota 17,780,164
Washington 17,692,767
Maryland 15,094,183
Wisconsin 14,482,624
Indiana 14,098,233
Connecticut 12,847,554
Arizona 12,396,587
Tennessee 11,344,998
Louisiana 10,860,348
Missouri 10,704,834
Kentucky 9,895,207
Colorado 9,205,912
Oklahoma 8,904,486
Alabama 8,868,314
South Carolina 8,688,935
Oregon 7,742,862
Arkansas 7,391,778
Kansas 6,893,359
Iowa 6,469,752
Mississippi 6,394,513
Nevada 6,304,753
Utah 5,889,423
New Mexico 5,205,322
Hawaii 5,093,842
West Virginia 4,654,213
Nebraska 4,071,032
Maine 3,581,680
Idaho 3,536,574
Alaska 3,442,930
Delaware 2,905,905
Rhode Island 2,766,046
Vermont 2,558,806
Montana 2,319,992
New Hampshire 2,172,196
Wyoming 2,025,090
North Dakota 1,782,990
South Dakota 1,256,120
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:40PM
#48, I have been to Chicago. The manager of the Signature Room on Hancock is more qualified to be POTUS.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:47PM
_A private attorney is authorized to spend $95,000 of state money to defend her against accusations of abuse of power.
_Palin sought pork-barrel projects for her city and state, contrary to her reformist image.
_Her husband once belonged to a fringe political group in Alaska, with some members supporting secession from the United States.
Palin accepted at least $4,500 in campaign contributions in the same fundraising scheme at the center of a public corruption scandal that led to the indictment of Sen. Ted Stevens.
The contributions, made during Palin's failed 2002 bid to become Alaska's lieutenant governor, were not illegal for her to accept. But they show how Palin, who has bucked Stevens and his allies, is nonetheless linked with Alaska's old guard
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:49PM
Hey #52, we can all read newpapers. Thanks for copy pasting.
Btw, how much money has Obama raise from the 'old guard' corrupt Democratic establishment - including the Chicago machine. Any idea? How about from only Rezko? I am guessing that it is more than $4500, right?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:49PM
What about Palin and her quote "I will oppose abortion even if my own daughter was raped or incest case"?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:50PM
After taking over as Mayor of the small town of Wasilla, Palin fired the longtime local police chief. The former police chief, Irl Stambaugh says he was fired because he stepped on the toes of Palin's campaign contributors, including bar owners and the National Rifle Association.
Stambaugh's lawyer, William Jermain, says the chief tried to move up the closing hours of local bars from 5 a.m. to two a.m. after a spurt of drunk driving accidents and arrests.
"His crackdown on that practice by the bars was not appreciated by her and that was one reason she terminated Irl," said Jermain.
Posted by girl , Sep 03, 2008 12:53PM
I'd suggest you a) change up your drinking partners and b) not waste our time trying to pass off drivel for legitmate political commentary
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:55PM
This one is the best -
The Federal Bureau of Investigation did not participate in the vetting of Gov. Sarah Palin and did not conduct a background check as part of the process, an FBI spokesman said today.
The Washington Post reported Sunday, citing an interview with campaign manager Rick Davis, that the vetting process "included reviews of financial and other personal data, an FBI background check and considerable discussion among the handful of McCain advisers nvolved in the deliberations.
"In general, we do not do vetting for political campaigns except as it might regard investigations needed for security clearances," said John Miller, the chief FBI spokesperson.
The FBI did not participate in a vet, nor did it run a background check of Gov. Palin as part of the process.
Palin might already have a clearance that relates to her duties as governor. But the FBI can't speak to that, and in any event, those investigations wouldn't be accessible to the McCain campaign anyway.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 12:57PM
Stop attacking @12. Have any of you ever been faced with having to make a decision like this? Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you get so high and mighty, or go adopt a special- needs kid before you preach.
This issue (a fetus with problems) aside, the fact that Palin does not approve of abortion in the case of RAPE or INCEST should be enough to scare the CRAP out of women everywhere.
Can you imagine being raped and having to carry to term? Can you picture a young victim of incest having to go through nine months of a pregnancy forced upon her by a sick, twisted relative? Every bit or morning sickness, every twitch or kick, every doctor appointment would bring back horrible thoughts on a daily basis. And you think women/girls in these cases won't resort to using a coathanger?
Abortion should not be a first choice, but it should be available. Clearly if l'il ol' Bristol had more CHOICES available to her, and I'm talking birth control and maybe some more education, then maybe she wouldn't be in the pickle she's in. Guess that old abstinence didn't do the trick.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:02PM
@ 1 you must be me.
***
Here's wall street's (and this is the only place I have ever aspired to have a career) problem with The Honorable Gov. Palin: She' real. She's human.
Wall Street is soulless. It's dead. It's been this way since the late '80s.
The parents of wall streets "workers" are the antithesis of Gov Palin, and so are their children.
But you know what? Fuck wall street.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:02PM
you guys suck...how could would it be to spank it to the VP?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:03PM
allow me to elaborate:
Wall Street's zombies have had their day.
If this business is to ever recover, it will be because it's run by humans again, not status zombies.
good riddance to them.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:08PM
@59 You are talking about the elite of the Street. There are plenty of "regular" people who have/had decent jobs. I know of several single moms who stayed with firms for 20 years and had stability, good benefits, tuition reimbursement, emergency childcare etc. They were able to purchase either homes or co-ops in Queens & Bklyn for their families and were doing quite nicely, until lately. What about people like that? When you crow about the end of Street, it hurts more than just the Big Swinging Ds you know.
Posted by girl , Sep 03, 2008 1:08PM
@ 58,
You are entirely right, and I am utterly shocked that women cannot concur on this issue. That scares the fuck out me.
Posted by FigJam , Sep 03, 2008 1:08PM
In actuality, it matters not an iota whether "Wall Street" (and as you define it, "Wall Street" seems confined to your drinking buddies)likes or supports Palin. Since it is doubtful that ANY Republican Presidential candidate could carry New York, the preferences of a few thousand Manhattanites is of no real consequence in the general election in determining where the NY electoral votes will go.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:11PM
@ 62: well said.
I'm also crowing about the beginning of the street, in 61.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:14PM
that's a very long way to say "we vote for who we like," which is not a revelation to anyone.
Posted by lowellfield , Sep 03, 2008 1:19PM
Shorter Carney: "Allow me to share my theory about how people who think Sarah Palin is an absurd choice for Vice President are really just narcissists afraid of being rejected by her and her awesome snow-family."
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:22PM
@58 and girl, stop piecing together multiple strawmen arguments to argue your way out.
#12's explicit point was that it is better to abort any baby that has the potential of being born with some disability - hence causing financial and other kinds of drag on the family. That directly translates into and argument for killing off all the invalids and disabled as they are definitely a drag on the family / country. She is being attacked for the same. Are you defending her stand?
Also, last I checked the pro-abortion groups' agenda was NOT to only provide access to abortions for cases of rape/incest and or life threatening issues for the mother. So do not use that stawman argument to further their cause - which is access to abortion for anyone anytime.
People who indulge in casual unprotected sex need to be aware of the consequences and face the same. It is not just a matter of their own 'bodies' but also another life, which would not have been but for their consensual activities. If Bristol Palin wanted to enjoy casual sex then she should absolutely be ready for the consequences whatever they be. And if the consequences are so dire, she had every which way of avoiding them.
Posted by lowellfield , Sep 03, 2008 1:31PM
Also, last I checked the pro-abortion groups' agenda was NOT to only provide access to abortions for cases of rape/incest and or life threatening issues for the mother.
But if it were, Palin would still oppose them, which makes her officially a nutcase.
Posted by EricM , Sep 03, 2008 1:33PM
Ah, yes, politics, because normal conversations lack sufficient invectives and superlatives.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:43PM
@68
Go back and read @12. Wait, let me save you the trouble. Here is part of the text:
"I have no quarrel with women who reject abortion and give birth to a Down Syndrome child, and successfully deal with the challenges of raising such a child. However, it is a personal decision. That personal choice should not be imposed as a moral duty on every woman."
Unlike Palin, @12 does not believe in forcing her beliefs upon other people.
And @12 never said anything (from your text) about "abort(ing) any baby that has the potential of being born with some disability". @12 was referring to known issues, not potential.
Get it? Got it? Good, now eat it. If you are going to debate here, at least stop twisting people's words.
No one is all happy happy joy joy, going to the clinic today to get an abortion for goodness sake. You don't honestly think that, do you?
And other than abstinence, do we really know what options Bristol had available to her? Doesn't seem like she could go to Mom & Dad and ask to be taken to the OB/Gyn for some birth control. Guess she and the baby daddy were too stupid or lazy to get some Trojans down at the drug store. Who knows, maybe in AK they don't even sell them to teens without reporting them to some kind of sex police. I'm kidding, for those of you with no sense of humor.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:46PM
@68,
Please stop with all your "personal responsibility" crap. This is America.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:51PM
We need to drill ANWR to support her grotesquely large family's growing energy needs.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:54PM
I love New York. I don't really know anything about it, though. I don't even live there; never have.
The New Yorker has just been using my picture on their magazine cover for the past 80 years. That's all. Haha!
Eustace Tilley
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 1:56PM
Maybe some of you should get out of Manhattan once in a while.
Middle America is not the third world, even some of those places might surprise you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.
- Innocents Abroad, Mark Twain
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:00PM
about ANWR... can someone explain what the urgency of drilling there is? Its not like the oil is going to go away. And its also not like drilling is going to solve any long or short term supply problems. We have a one years supply of oil in the ground there. Keep it for a rainy day, I say.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:01PM
Come on people, this "which candidate would you like to have a beer with" or "which candidate would like to have a beer with you" is nonsense. An election should be about issues.
Issues in this election:
-Economy
-Foriegn affairs
-Environment/energy
Vote for the ticket that will do the better job for America on those issues.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:01PM
@75 And the same could be said for middle America...maybe they think NYC is the third world, what with all the immigrants and the gays that want to get married and the Jews and don't forget the those vegans too and those scary athiests.
The problem is that issues aren't black and white, they are usually gray and people deeply entrenched on either side seem to scream the loudest, drowing out any rational dialogue.
We need a third party candidate, a voice of reason!!! Any volunteers out there in DB land?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:02PM
#12 are you kidding me??
"Her comments about choosing to have a baby with Down Syndrome are very insensitive to those who have chosen to terminate their pregnancies after a negative amniocentesis"
Do you know how big a jackass you are??
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:05PM
78 Dare I say it: Ron P...
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:05PM
@75 your Twain quote speaks volumes when juxtaposed with Sarah Palin got her first passport last year.
Posted by diablo , Sep 03, 2008 2:07PM
#67
I agree. Carney comes in fully loaded with strawmen to avoid the core issue whether Palin has any substance to fill the #1 spot in case is needed. Palin is Harriet Miers #2.
What people should be interested to know is why McCain couldn't find anyone else (of dominionist persuasion) to run with him. Is it true the better choices are waiting to run in 2012 for the #1 spot, that they didn't want to get burned in a losing ticket in 2008? And if Palin goes down before November, who would be the one to step in?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:09PM
@ 71:
Please point to one piece of legislation (hell, point to one quote) that indicates Palin supports creating laws that disallow abortions in cases of rape or incest.
Not believing that something is morally correct is not the same as legislating it out of existence. Especially for a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of limited government like Palin.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:10PM
@80 you dared but he didn't do it for me, sorry :(
Let me dare...Bloomberg. At least he can't be bought.
@81 Good one. She probably thought she needed it for her trip to the Lower 48.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:14PM
#71, You need a course in logic. Stop clinging to that degree of yours from some ivy as vindication of your intelligence as your arguments (and reading comprehension) indicate anything but.
#12 presented a litany of arguments regardind the myriad difficulties of raising a disabled / imperfect child. Her argument (the part you quoted) boild down to - I respect those who raise such a child but I would, most people do and most people SHOULD 1) have the choice and 2) exercise the choice to terminate the life of such a child.
I just took her argument forward from the prenatal phase to the postnatal phase. EVERY argument that she offered regarding the difficulties and challenges in raising a special needs child applies equally even if the disability sets in once the child is born. Hence, is she arguing that though we should respect the choice of parents / relatives who look after those kids, everyone should have the 'choice' to terminate 'kill' such individuals as they are a drag on the family?
Are you supporting that argument? Do you even understand it?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:17PM
Hey - Congratulations everyone! According to Pappy McCain - you guys are all qualified to be Vice President (just one heart beat from the oval office)! Actually - as slick Wall Street types - you guys might be overqualified!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:17PM
@50
How old are those statistics? 12million in Tax Revenue from CT? Can't be correct.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:23PM
@83 The point is, with Old Mc Cain, she's very close to Pres position, which as you know appoints justices to the Supreme Court.
Besides that, I can't wrap my head around her whole mindset (creationism, abstinence only, drilling in ANWR). What the F century are we in anyway?
And this:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/02/1327574.aspx
And here I thought God was waiting for football season to start.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:24PM
#78 said - "maybe they think NYC is the third world, what with all the immigrants and the gays that want to get married and the Jews and don't forget the those vegans too and those scary athiests. "
As someone who has lived in a third world country, middle america and new york city - I do think that new york (especially the attitude of the people who live here) is amazingly close to that of residents of third world countries. There are more immigrants than anywhere in middle america. There are certainly way way more very visible gays than in middle america and they DO want marriage rights. There aren't as many orthodox Jews in middle america and yes, the common populace tends to be ruder than the typical middle american (not to mention the higher rates of violent crime here).
There you are. Looks like you summarized your view (the true one) of new york and somehow tried to attribute it to middle americans. Would have been funny had it not been true.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:30PM
@85 Don't do @12 any favors and "take her argument forward". If she wants to do that, she can do it herself.
I don't see anywhere that she says what people SHOULD do or SHOULD NOT do with their situation, other than have a choice. I thought her post, unlike your rant, was well thought out and presented.
So let me ask you, a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant, what would you have her do?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:30PM
@ 77,
You left off gay marriage and abortion.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:33PM
@89 You moron, that was tongue in cheek about what middle america thinks about NYC (recall John Rocker), not what I think, you doo doo head!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:35PM
@77 and the answer is None Of The Above
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:40PM
@#78...
Here I am. The "voice of reason".
The Guy from Delaware
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:42PM
As has already been pointed out many times before, it is amazing how people like GWBush can be so vehemently opposed to abortion yet think nothing of the 4000+ US troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that have been killed for a pointless war.. Once again a politician hides behind the flag for his own hypocritical purposes...
My main comment though is to those who criticize people for having abortions. Do you really think that human life is that precious. You must be joking. Human life is essentially worthless. You may kid yourself otherwise but inside you know it to be true.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:42PM
@94 Praise be! You've finally come!
You have my vote. I'm so happy now, I would even be friends with @85.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:44PM
#90, "...I don't see anywhere that she says what people SHOULD do or SHOULD NOT do with their situation, other than have a choice..."
Does a single mother of 2 - one of whom is mentally retarded - have the 'choice' of killing the kid as she is unable to find helthcare / support the kid financially? I think not. Apparently you 1) either do think that she has the 'choice' 2) are an idiot who does not understand it and cannot go beyond to simplified catch phrases 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life'
I am leaning towards #2 as clearly you do not understand the fact that being a mother does not automatically grant you the 'choice' of whether to let the child live or not. All the arguments she forwarded for aborting a disabled child prior to delivery apply equally to afterwards. Hence the logical extention. My apologies, I should not have expected such your mind to be able to infer as much.
"So let me ask you, a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant, what would you have her do? "
My post clearly mentioned 'consual' and 'casual' sex. I do not know if rape falls in either of those categories. Then again, I guess I should not make any assumptions regarding personal fetishes.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:55PM
That should have read consensual.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:56PM
@97
"My post clearly mentioned 'consual' and 'casual' sex. I do not know if rape falls in either of those categories. Then again, I guess I should not make any assumptions regarding personal fetishes."
You don't know if rape falls in either casual or consenual categories? Are you that stupid? No, I think clearly you are a sick MF'er so I'm not even going to bother to respond to the rest of the crap you wrote. Maybe one day you'll experience a rape and someone can assume it was a PERSONAL FETISH of yours or that you CONSENTED.
My last point to you is that it's not all about pro-life and pro-choice. Each situation is different. But I guess you can't understand that. In your holier-than-thou world, you are the RIGHT and everyone else is the WRONG.
Hey wait, maybe you hit on something...post natal abortions! The first one can be performed on you, you waste of oxygen.
I can't waste any more time on the likes of you but I will leave you with one piece of advice...be careful how sanctimonious you are...it could come back to bite you in your precious little arse.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:56PM
And here I am thinking you guys are all a bunch of misfits barely beyond the reach of daycare, (maybe), and then you do something all insightful and $h!t.
Well said.
Oh, and to #95: I don't think the families of the 200,000 or so who were killed by Saddam and his Baathist party would think this is a pointless war. I don't think the marginalized Kurds who Saddam actually used chemical weapons on think this is a pointless war.
You're really just proving his point about narcissism, aren't you?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 2:57PM
97,
You smug bastard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zby1-1ylD0&feature=related
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:01PM
@23
I will support you 100% in an agenda separating the sovereignty of the coasts from the midwest and south.
How should we proceed?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:04PM
Ask @94, The Voice of Reason.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:08PM
Palin wanting to get rid of sex ed while having a 17 yr/o that is pregnant is a little concerning.
I understand that pro life/choice is a touchy subject, but really, what are the chances of her being able to change the way things are now, just by being in office?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:09PM
@102 Better yet, why not ask Mr. Palin? He might have picked up some pointers from those Alaska secessionist folks.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:15PM
Cool.
We can call it the Coastal Cession Movement. (i like it better spelled with a "C")
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:18PM
@104 Again it's her whole mindset...include creationism, abstinence only, drilling - even Mc Cain opposed that - not sure if he flipped on that. It's a little disconcerting. She being a woman is not enough to make me vote for her, and no, I was not a fan of Hillary either. Actually politicians pretty much make me ill, all of them.
It's just sad that this is the best both sides have to offer.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:20PM
@106 CCC!
There might be pockets like Austin, TX that would have an interest in joining. How do you propose to handle these geographically isolated areas?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:31PM
@#103...
The ideas of #102 & #23 are not worth further consideration. "Sovereignty of both US coasts?" Not going to happen.
Stop fantasizing. Back to work. Aren't the HR goons monitoring you clowns?
The "voice of Reason"
AKA The Guy from Delaware
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:33PM
@ 107 - I agree. Politics and politicians are not my favorite topic to discuss, it makes me feel uncomfortable and icky. And the fact that everyone feels so strongly about certain topics almost amazes me.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:34PM
#99 said - "You don't know if rape falls in either casual or consenual categories? Are you that stupid?"
I think DB should allow color coding so that retards can understand sarcasm before blowing their gasket.
".. I'm not even going to bother to respond to the rest of the crap you wrote... you are the RIGHT and everyone else is the WRONG.."
1) You will not bother to respond because you CANNOT
2) Are you sure that you are not talking about yourself? You mentioned 'choice' a thousand times without clarifying what the choice is for. Does a mother have a choice to terminate a 8 month old embryo? Does a mother have a choice to kill a disabled 2 month old baby? The circumstances @12 describe apply equally to both situations.
Given that I did not get an answer to that, and given that I cannot put the question any straighter I think I'll assume the the better - that you just dont get it, instead of assuming that you are in favor of killing the handicapped and disabled if they cause a financial/emotional drag as @12 seems to believe.
Posted by AJ , Sep 03, 2008 3:35PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-QevraCQUc&eurl=http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/09/im-freaking-governor-of-alaska-i-didnt.html
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:41PM
@109 - buzzkill
you are not considering the possibilities! allow the coasts to be independent, kooky liberal enclaves ...... and then invade them for harboring terrorists or WMD or whatever is convenient.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:42PM
@#111...
Relax. Don't let the clowns cause your stress level to rise.
The "Voice of Reason"
AKA The Guy from Delaware
Posted by DS , Sep 03, 2008 3:50PM
As a woman I find it scary to hear other women speak so casually about abortion. Regardless of the situation there is a human life inside of you and your body is no longer your own. You are sharing it now and it is selfish not to consider the other life involved. And for everyone who thinks that only religious southerner/midwesterners think that way I'm from CT and not religious at all. By having a child with down syndrome Sarah Palin has shown that she values life even when it is difficult or a financial burden as 12 mentioned. I think she's also shown that we have no right to value one person's life over another. Regarding her daughter I think those criticizing her are assuming she's ashamed and would want to keep the child a secret or out of the public eye. I'm sure this wasn't her dream for her kid but it happened and she's showing her that she's still proud of her and loves her. What more could you ask from a parent?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:55PM
@115 I don't think anyone is speaking casually about it. This is clearly a serious subject that sparks deep emotions in people. There there is a lot of sarcasm that goes back and forth here but in no way is it a casual subject. I think people on both sides of the aisle can at least agree on that.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 3:59PM
@115 "Regarding her daughter I think those criticizing her are assuming she's ashamed and would want to keep the child a secret or out of the public eye."
Actually she's being criticized for her ostrich-like stance of Abstinence Only as a means of teen BC, and not accepting that teenagers are going to do the Wild Thing (except not hers, of course).
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:01PM
Hey, I thought this was about Wall Street and Palin. WTF happened to that?
I need some levity. Can we please have some sophmoric frat boy comments please?
Posted by DS , Sep 03, 2008 4:10PM
@117 So you've never done anything your parents told you not to? I don't uphold all of the standards/values my parents taught me, that doesn't mean they didn't teach them to me or suddenly think they're not important because I've done them. The fact remains that she is supporting her daughter even after she did something she knows she disapproves of. That's what makes her a good mom.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:13PM
@118 agreed - how about something more serious like which bank has the highest concentration of d-bags?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:14PM
I believe the issue that is missing between @12 and @111 boils down to often-argued question of "when does life begin"? I don't mean to drag this to such a larger debate, but the notion that @12's arguements extend to post-natal ends right there. Currently it is legal to end a life in embryo. That may be overturned, but won't EVER be overturned is the right to end a life post-natal.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:15PM
People who oppose abortion as an option should not stop there. If a pregnant woman's body is not her own, then what about the father of a child in liver failure? Should we have a law mandating live organ donation when the life of a child is at stake? What if it is not your child? What if the person who needs tissue is neither young nor a relative? Are we truly our brothers' keepers? Or are people who oppose choice really just desirous of placing a constraint on pregnant women? If so, I question their motives. Now, a constitutional amendment requiring manditory participation in organ/tissue/blood donation to all comers, that would merit discussion...
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:24PM
@121 12 never said anything about post-natal ending of anything. It was that lunatic who was "taking the argument forward". Can we just ignore him now?
@122 I think in NJ they were going to or have passed a law requiring people to opt-out if they did NOT want to be a donor...otherwise, they are considered to be one.
Posted by DS , Sep 03, 2008 4:26PM
@122 One has nothing to with the other. Abortion is actively choosing to end a life. Not giving an organ donation is passive. Forcing people to help each other is not the same as prohibiting them from hurting each other. Furthermore, the only reason I said a woman's body is not her own when she is pregnant is because she is physically sharing it with her child until she gives birth.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:26PM
118 I said before that I though Palin's husband was hot. Ditto for Levi. GAnalYst
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:26PM
From @123 to @121, point taken. I thought you were saying that @12 was arguing for that, which clearly she was not, my bad.
Posted by diablo , Sep 03, 2008 4:26PM
#119
DS, you have no clue whether Palin is a good mom or not. Do you KNOW her? I don't know her, and I can't comment on her goodness as a mom or as a human being. But you know, I really don't care.
It's enough for me to know that I don't agree with her dominionist agenda. And Carney, who is supposedly a libertarian, like many in Wall Street are, should know better.
The bottom line is that Wall Street will do fine without McCain and Palin. This whole discussion is ridiculous.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:31PM
@125 Thank you. Yeah, he is hot, probably as long as he keeps his mouth shut. I haven't seen the baby daddy yet.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:33PM
All these arguments....you ppl act like you never boink without a condom or some other mode of protection. Let he without sin cast the first stone.
Lighten up!
Posted by DS , Sep 03, 2008 4:34PM
@127 You think Obama's socialist policies will be better?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:34PM
Requested Frat boy comment: Bristol Palin: one peice of a** you perverts wont get a crack at for at least another 4 months
Un requested serious comment: If Ron Paul was elected President there would be free Mike Hard for all and a lot more knocked up 17 years olds ....refreshing!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:35PM
@129 of course, who hasn't? But it's the right that is so holier-than-thou which makes this sweet irony.
Posted by Cincinnatus C , Sep 03, 2008 4:39PM
@71, thanks for the heads up.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:39PM
@131 I wuv you.
@130 No. Both suck. They all suck. That's what's so freakin depressing. It was all downhill after GW, and I mean George Washington.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:40PM
@129 I'm sure many people do that. I wonder how many people would be in favor of a third of their salary supporting an unplanned kid because abortion is no longer an option. I think we should all hope it doesn't get that far! just adding a little perspective...
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:40PM
122 = 'tard
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:40PM
" Currently it is legal to end a life in embryo. That may be overturned, but won't EVER be overturned is the right to end a life post-natal."
No, it is not legal to end life in an embryo. It is legal to end life in the first trimester of an embryo and only legal afterwards if it can be proven sufficiently that the mother's health and life would be adversely affected by continuation of the pregnancy.
Whereas your conclusion is clear, what is not AT ALL clear is how all of @12's arguments do not apply in entirety to post-natal abortions (currently deemed homicides.) If we are going to pen a 100 word post providing financial / reasons for prenatal abortions then why can we not piece together 10 words on why the same does not apply post? Or an 8 month old fetus is less deserving of rights as compared to an hour old baby?
Also, women have the CHOICE to not get pregnant (excluding forcible acts).
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:41PM
You mean about the sex police in AK?
It's true, really. They have them in Arkansas and Mississippi too I have heard, and the Dakotas.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:45PM
@135. many people do and some pay the consequences. either by scratching their crotch for the rest of their life, or their noggin while they watch their newborn child come out.
Why do people do it then? Because it's fun? Because it's thrilling to take risks? Who knows...the point is it's going to happen. The world is a far sh*ttier place when people try to control what happens right before the act and in the next 9 months after the said act.
I don't need your perspective or color commentary on my post.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:46PM
@137 Please go away.
@135 What I would like to see is my tax dollars paying for BC implants in irresponsible people who keep having kids they can't take care of, esp those using drugs and constantly reproducing. I'll stop short of saying sterilize them, just give them BC implants as a condition of their receiving my tax dollars in the form of their welfare check.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:49PM
128 I'm assuming you're female, cause guys (both gay and straight)tend not to spend a lot of time considering whether or not a person is well spoken when evaluating their general hotness. Re Levi: "hockey hunk". Nuff said. GAnalYst
Posted by DS , Sep 03, 2008 4:50PM
@134 Agreed, but I really like Thomas Jefferson.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:51PM
@139 I must be addled from all these posts. I honestly don't understand what your point is. Please rephrase so that I might partake of your wisdom.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:53PM
@141 Damn, you're good! So there IS such a thing as Gaydar after all!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 4:55PM
@141 Damn, you're good! So there IS such a thing as Gaydar after all!
@142 Yeah, they don't make 'em like that anymore. Please no Sally Hemmings comments. Oh and John Adams was nothing to sneeze at.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:08PM
With his sex slave of color and shit, TJ would have been lucky to get elected to the neighborhood zoning committee, leave alone POTUS. He is absolutely my favorite president but just sayin....
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:08PM
@143: People will f*ck and then have kids or abortions regardless of your personal opinion.
Is that simple enough for you?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:15PM
144 Please... You have gaydar all wrong: its the ability to differentiate gays from straights, not gays from women. And, here's one from the playbook: its all done with the eyes. Guys, both gay and straight, always check out others as potential sexual conquests. Just a guy habit. So if I'm on the subway, in the street, anywhere and I lock eyes with another guy for even a split second its a good bet that he's gay too. Straight guys look right through another guy. Don't even notice them, cause they're focusing on women. Simple as that. My wisdom for today. Now back to work. GAnalYst
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:23PM
It's funny how many of you are scared of us evangelical Christians. We are pretty nice folks. And believe me, we have no interest in forcing our religion on anyone else (a forced conversion is meaningless, after all). We also don't like you to force others to accept your choices. Certainly, having a child with Down's Syndrome is difficult. But should the child be killed because of that? Do you really think the child would choose to be killed? Would the child choose to be killed because dad was a rapist? Of course it is hard on the mother. That is tragic. But that is what the courts are for. Punish the rapist, not the baby.
Christians (most anyway) do stand up for the rights of the child as equal to those of the mother. No more, no less.
An unwanted pregnancy is a great inconvenience, to be sure. It also was difficult on slaveowners to have their property taken from them by emancipation. But it was the right thing to do.
Sometimes doing the right thing is tough.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:30PM
@149,
It's because most get their concept of a Christian from Hollywood or Televangelists. They don't think about the 10 of millions of us who just go about our lives trying hard to be decent.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:32PM
"we have no interest in forcing our religion on anyone else"
then your post should have ended there.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:36PM
@151. So offering my opinion is forcing my religion on you? Does that mean you just became an evangelical? Or is your comment pure sophistry?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:37PM
@150,
Hear, hear.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:39PM
by stating you are evengelical christian, we already know your opinion.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:44PM
149 I would say more annoyed than scared. The world would just be a more pleasant place without all of you spouting your dogma.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:45PM
@154,
So we should shut up and go away? Why do you consider us to be inferior? Do we have fewer rights? Are we not allowed to enter the debate?
Why is that?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:47PM
yes, you are inferior.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:49PM
you ask too many questions. shut up and go away.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 5:51PM
@157,
Well this inferior person thinks you are unable to argue by other than ad hominem attacks.
Do you think you can support your thesis?
Posted by beentheredonethat , Sep 03, 2008 6:05PM
They wish the evangelicals, or for that matter anyone of faith, would simply go away so they would never have to reckon with the fact that there are moral absolutes in this world, and there is no protection by claiming everything is a shade of gray. What they wish to do is be left alone so they can do what they want when they want and fuck the consequences.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 6:15PM
@158,
You're right. Let's all put our heads back in the sand
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 6:20PM
abortion and right to life are moot!
How many hurdles have to be jumped before this issue has tangible impact on any Americans?
There are real issues to be decided in this election.
Carney, can you start a series on abortions by hot banker chicks?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 6:31PM
@10 If the objective of WStreet was to bring down the fin-sys for a free call option then your definition of "success" on WS would be correct!
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 6:31PM
@162,
And with Palin on board, there is at least a good reason to vote for McCain instead of Bob Barr....
Posted by diablo , Sep 03, 2008 6:49PM
DS, repeat after me, Wall Street will do just fine without McCain and Palin.
As Peggy Noonan just said (unaware to a live microphone): "It's over."
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 7:04PM
Hi! It's the reviled #12 back again, to start a riot. Sorry that people think I'm pro-eugenics and a Nazi.
The always reliable Wikipedia reports that about 95% of pregnancies in which Down Syndrome is detected are aborted. Postings from Canada and Spain indicate a similar rate in their cultures.
Here are a list of complications compiled by the Mayo Clinic associated with Down Syndrome:
"Heart defects. Approximately half of children with Down syndrome are born with some type of heart defect. These heart problems can be life-threatening and may require surgery in early infancy.
"Leukemia. Young children with Down syndrome are more likely to develop leukemia than are children who don't have Down syndrome.
"Infectious diseases. Because of abnormalities in their immune systems, those with Down syndrome are much more susceptible to infectious diseases. For example, their risk of contracting pneumonia is much higher than that of others without this disorder.
"Dementia. Later in life, people with Down syndrome have a greatly increased risk of dementia. Signs and symptoms of dementia often appear before age 40 in people with Down syndrome.
"Other problems. Down syndrome may also be associated with a variety of other health conditions, including gastrointestinal blockage, thyroid problems, hearing loss and poor vision."
No one gives parents of Down Syndrome children extra money at the child's birth to cope with all of these possibilities. If the family has other children, the pool of funds for the other children is going to be disproportionately reduced to pay for the care of the Down Syndrome child. College funds for the other children dry up; eventual retirement for the parents becomes more problematic. When parents are confronted with the results of genetic testing, they have to think about the effect on the entire family. All I am saying is that it's a painful, tough decision and no one should stigmatize people who don't feel that they can bear the burden. Frankly, it's a private family decision and I think the Christian evangelists should butt out.
I am well aware that Down Syndrome children are usually sociable and lovable, and it's only natural that people with such children love them deeply and defend their potential. I am also deeply committed to early education of Down Syndrome children and favor public education for all children with a disabling condition. I am also aware that in the range of disabling conditions, Down Syndrome is not the most severe.
I have met all sorts of parents with disabled children, and I am in awe of their daily heroism. However, I have never heard one of them imply that their struggles in raising their children confer a special moral status on them, or that a woman should be forced to go forward with a pregnancy when genetic counseling reveals a 98.5% probable outcome of giving birth to a child with a serious disabling condition.
I do not support infanticide. I support the rehabilitation of accident victims. I completely support the medical community's effort to save every life in being.
I just don't believe moral absolutists should come between a woman and a doctor during pregnancy. I don't cheer on abortions as a good thing.
On the other point about the pregnancy of Palin's teen-age daughter, I don't hear a lot of people disagreeing with me about the importance of shielding her from invasive publicity. No one seems to be interested in the issue of the problems of Palin's daughter in completing her education.
This country has lead the world in the education of women. It's too bad that it's simply discounted as being important for the young woman's future.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 7:25PM
166 has Down Syndrome.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 7:28PM
#166 said - "I do not support infanticide. I support the rehabilitation of accident victims. I completely support the medical community's effort to save every life in being.
I just don't believe moral absolutists should come between a woman and a doctor during pregnancy."
Why done you first go clear your head? Specify by what you mean by you 'do not support.' So are you not being a 'moral absolutist' here who is standing in the way of the single poor mother of a disabled kid and some euthanalogist?
So are people who oppose quadriplegics from being 'terminated' by family as their financial resources cannot sustain the person are 'moral absolutists'?
"...it's a private family decision and I think the Christian evangelists should butt out...."
So essentially your stand boils down to - a disabled / handicapped / mentally challenged person's immediate family have the right to decide upon that person's life and can chose to do whatever as it is a 'private decision.' Anyone stating anything else is a 'moral absolutist.'
At least be bold enough to accept your stance. Why fudge and obfuscate. Many people DO believe that the disabled should be terminated (end yes, evangelicals are the ones who seem to be creating the most noise 'butting into' these issues in the name of 'sacred life' or some drivel like that).
I dont understand. You clearly apply different metrics to similar situations without reconciling between the two. In case of an embryo it is a 'private decision' and in case of an infant it is not? How so? Care yo explain the difference?
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 7:30PM
@12 Thank you for your insights and for returning to post again. What you wrote are hard words to get out there, but they have to be said. As someone who has had personal first-hand experience with a situation worse than Downs, I say to all:
Don't judge someone until you walk in their shoes.
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 7:32PM
@168 For the love of pete, her point is clear. now get off her fcuking case, dipwad
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 8:49PM
Bristol seems to me to be very aptly named
Posted by guest , Sep 03, 2008 9:29PM
Ok, so I'm sure someone else has noticed this, but no f'ing way I'm going to read through this shite, so I'll just throw this out to those who are here now: shouldn't women be both a bit upset about her early appearance as former beauty queen, and the McCain's team's apparent insistence that she not only not look like a babe, but that she wash herself out a bit much? Maybe she could've kept the updo (my guess is that they're very afraid SNL could get Fey to agree to a partial season), or she could have kept the makeup, but losing both seems both punitive and desperate. Not to mention alienating the, well, you-know-who (Bill C., maybe you've had some thoughts) boys.
Posted by guest , Sep 04, 2008 12:47AM
@ 14 & 116 - I am pretty sure Palin was not thinking of you or any of your friends personally when she decided to give birth to her ill child. Her "insensitive comments?" Get off it. I think the general point in the press coverage/propaganda about it is that she spent her life anti-abortion, and when a crappy situation presented itself, she kept to the principles she advocated. It points to integrity, and this is something to respect, regardless of any pro-abortion / anti-abortion views.
Re the daughter: a civilized press wouldn't cover it. That said, clearly the thing to do when your morals/fate fail you is to don a burqua and show up in the town square for your stoning. The kid will live, and probably be better off for having a mother who isn't ashamed of her.
As for the education - there is such a s thing as a GED, and it's a perfectly acceptable credential. And slightly off topic, but ... most of the kids in college these days have been profoundly mislead about what they can achieve with a degree, and are probably worse off for the student loans they will spend the next decade+ paying off. All for the privilege of topping out at $45k a year in a "professional job." What the hell is wrong with being a carpenter or a mechanic these days? I could USE a brilliant mechanic, as opposed to the last idiot who showed up to jump my car.
Re: WALL ST (the point of this post, or something ... ?): Carney - the woman hunts and decorates her office with her father's kills. Do you really feel she can't relate to Wall St.?
Posted by guest , Sep 04, 2008 12:59PM
#166, Canada is a different country but with a culture that is 98% the same. Please get your sh*t together.
Canuckel Head
Posted by guest , Sep 05, 2008 11:08AM
@ Sept 3, 11:47 (#12), Keep your stupid ass views to yourself. Fuck insensitive and fuck you for being a cockbreath! And btw, no one connects with Wall Street and no one gives a shit. What's the average term of someone actually living/working on Wall St anyways? Come on speak up you former-Bear employees (or any of you other fuckers that are now former wall streeters and now have a lot of time on your hands). If Obama connects with you, you better be checking your wallet (or your shlong).
Posted by stockshotz , Sep 06, 2008 1:33PM
@12 You contradict yourself like an idiot. First you talk about how terminating a downs pregnancy is essentially good because of all of the struggles/pressures that the child would put on the parents.
Then you say that Palin should not have run for office to keep her pregnant daughter off of the national stage.
So you believe kids should be terminated to keep stress of the parents and parents shouldn't pursue their careers to keep stress off of their kids.
So in your perfect world, we would cease to procreate. That is the only way that parents and kids will not cause each other stress.
You just should have said you didn't like Palin and saved the screen space that your comment occupies.
Posted by guest , Sep 06, 2008 1:37PM
hahaha
176 is an idiot!
Posted by guest , Sep 06, 2008 1:39PM
Actually, I am sorry.
176 is not an idiot.
I just didn't read any further after the 1st line.
I am so surprised how many people get worked up about Palin even on weekends! I am so voting for her!
Posted by guest , Sep 06, 2008 8:44PM
I work in Fixed Income Trading, and I think we're probably a lot less elitist than the IB guys. Most of the guys in the rows near me (an unscientific poll if ever there was one) are very excited about McCain's choice of Palin and were thrilled with her speech. Lower taxes, a more open-minded energy plan, less government, I mean, what's not to like??
Posted by guest , Sep 06, 2008 8:48PM
I work in Fixed Income Trading, and I think we're probably a lot less elitist than the Investment Banker guys of the Equity guys. Most of the guys in the rows near me (an unscientific poll if ever there was one) are very excited about McCain's choice of Palin and were thrilled with her speech. Lower taxes, a more open-minded energy plan, less government--I mean--what's not to like?? The guys who mock her are Obama supporters, and I see fear in their eyes.
To us, she is: "Sarah P--the HEARTBEAT of America."
Posted by guest , Sep 06, 2008 9:28PM
# 12& 166
Well said! Finally somebody makes any sense on this site.
#168
too bad you weren't aborted
Posted by guest , Sep 07, 2008 1:47PM
She's not married to a metrosexual and she did NOT attend and Ivy League.
Of course, everyone from New York to Washington (and let's not forget San Francisco) hates her.
Exactly why it's more than likely she and McCane will win!
Posted by guest , Sep 07, 2008 8:57PM
@182: I am from New York, and I love her.
Posted by guest , Sep 07, 2008 9:21PM
You have got to be the most illiterate inbred hick to actually vote for McCain/Palin. There's a reason why Wall Street overwhelmingly supports Obama even though we are part of that 5% of the population who will see a tax increase instead of decrease. Its because we don't want to see this country turned into a third world nation which is what will happen with morons like McCain/Palin in the White House.
Posted by guest , Sep 08, 2008 3:24AM
Agree with #184. McCain is stuck in the past; Palin is more than a little bizarre. She's kind of like the sneak Ross Perot manque of the race.
I can't take all of Palin's glib little summaries of how things were done in Alaska. A lot of what she pounds her chest over is bogus. That plane put up on eBay didn't sell. It had to be off-loaded through a more conventional seller.
OK, Palin decided to give birth to a special needs baby. When is Palin going to start spending some time, other than photo ops, with that special needs child?
Bristol Palin seems to have been forced into the role as "little mother." This frequently happen in large families. The oldest takes care of the littler ones while Mother is busy. I note she was pressed into service during the convention as a baby-sitter for Twig. I look forward to Bristol Palin's "Mommy Dearest" - type memoir in coming years.
The Palins are fresh-faced, attractive, athletic people. They are also wholly ignorant of what happens in a economy that is not based on a surfeit of oil being available to it. The lack of understanding of foreign policy is also lamentable in the extreme.
Well, I'll stay tuned. At least Ma and Pa Palin, when they go out sporting by shooting wolves from a Piper Cub airplane, are not one thing: TEXANS. You all don't know how pleasant it is to have the crudest person on the national political scene NOT be a Texan. For once, the Lone Star state caught a break.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:31PM
How do any of you know what Sarah Palin may or may not have said to her daughter in regard to sex and birth control? How do any of you know that she wasn't using birth control of some sort that failed? It does that you know. Had left wing bloggers not started spreading vicious lies about Sarah Palin's pregnancy, she may never have said a word about her daughter's condition. It's amazing the things that people will assume about others as justification for spewing hate.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:32PM
@186- it doesn't matter if her daughter was smart enough to use bc, her dumb ass mother is against the idea of teenagers fucking.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:42PM
I hope Palin's first VP project is to convince the Pres to sell Manhattan, including all of its' inhabitants, to any native Indian who will take it.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:42PM
180 I'm willing to bet that you and the other fixed income traders there are not in NY. Or within 500 miles of NY.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:43PM
Obama supporters are so annoying that I must hold my nose and vote for McCain.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 4:51PM
Some people seem to have forgotten one of the fundamental tenets of female sex education from the Feminist movement,
"Have all the promiscuous sex that you desire. If you get a disease there are drugs; if you get pregnant there's abortion. Have fun. No worries. Be a man! "
I see it's still being promulgated.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 6:55PM
184 & 185 - a lot of people in this country are sick and tired of lawyers, ivy leagers, metrosexuals and other assorted East Coast "we know what's good for you" aholes running this country. Ergo, you guys better start planning for your new home in France along with Alec Baldwin and Barbie Sreisand 'cause the future is looking pretty bleak for Obama.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 6:56PM
184 & 185 - a lot of people in this country are sick and tired of lawyers, ivy leagers, metrosexuals and other assorted East Coast "we know what's good for you" aholes running this country. Ergo, you guys better start planning for your new home in France along with Alec Baldwin and Barbie Sreisand 'cause the future is looking pretty bleak for Obama.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 11:44PM
#23 WOW! Leftist Fascism and Snobbish condescension. Despicable.
Posted by guest , Sep 09, 2008 11:54PM
oh shut the fuck up 191
Posted by guest , Sep 10, 2008 12:58AM
Guest 09/09 4:51 -- It is not one of the fundamental tenets of feminism to encourage promiscuous sex without regard to birth control or the spread of venereal disease.
This message has never been promulgated in the U.S. and is not being promulgated now.
Feminists and proponents of birth control are not one and the same subset of people. Just for one historical instance: there was great concern in the 1950s about over-population. Ordinary people of both political parties who thought of themselves as progressive supported the message of birth control, including that notorious feminist, George H.W. Bush.
I don't know of a single feminist in history who thought the spread of venereal disease was inconsequential. You have forgotten that there was only a brief time in history, approximately 1965 - 1985, when birth control pills or intrauterine devices were recommended by physicians as the sole method of birth control. Prior to 1965 and after 1985, condoms were recommended by public health officials for people who were sexually active. For the prevention of disease, you know.
Finally, legalized abortion has never been promoted in this country to encourage sex. It is promoted because what went on before abortion was legal was far, far worse. There will always be a demand for abortion because humans are fallible.
At one time in the 1970s prior to Roe v. Wade, women who had illegal abortions came forward and had their names published in an advertisement in the New York Times. You would have been amazed at the names on the list, and perhaps you would have changed your mind when you saw what the simple reality was for many women.