So ... suddenly, the market turned up 4% or so.
Unfortunately, this is less likely anything to do with equity valuations being at bargain prices, and more to do with index option expirations, many of which take place Friday. This should by all accounts be somewhat expected: there are usually spikes in the market at this time of the month (such as around Sept. 19 when the same thing was going on), and some index options cannot be traded on the expiration date (various Dow and S&P options in particular).
Which again raises the question: when do we hit a bottom? Much of the recent talk of hitting a bottom in the stock market is probably misplaced, and definitely too narrowly focused. The truth is, in a bear market a bottom has less to do with how cheap equities become relative to earnings, and more to do with other macroeconomic factors (as is true in a bull market very often, too).
Likewise, the issue with the various bailout packages is not so much that they are politically problematic, but that they try and correct the microeconomic climate, rather than the macroeconomic one. (For example, a reduction in the Japanese interest rate would have had more effect than the Asian, European, and U.S. ones combined).
There are four factors combined that most probably trigger the "buy" signal: the value of the dollar, the value of the yen, the price of gold, and the price of oil. When these four factors hit favorable valuations all at once, equity prices will probably see a big rush in buying. Here's why:
Dollar: a continued decline in the value of the dollar is bad news for global importers whose currency is pegged to the dollar. Many of these countries, particularly those in the middle east, depend upon imports for sustainable economic growth. While a weak dollar kept the U.S. from entering recession in the second quarter this year, that's a short term fix. It's much more important that currencies tied to the dollar feel flush so that they begin spending in the global economy.
Yen: Conversely, a massive devaluation of the yen is needed in order free up the much-debated existence of that far eastern market called the "yen carry trade" (to around 115 yen vs. dollar). Whether the yen carry trade -- the process of borrowing money in Japan and investing it elsewhere at higher interest -- exists or not is open to dispute. What is not open to dispute however is the psychological impact a weak yen has on global risk appetite. Its significance is even more pronounced this time round due to the current credit freeze. A drop in the yen also makes Japanese exporters much more profitable, therefore keeping consumer goods prices imported from there profitable.
Gold: Gold is a widely misunderstood commodity, mainly because so many people think of it in its traditional capacity as a hedge against inflation and defensive asset. Gold is more a defense against earnings growth than inflation today. That's why if you chart the period where gold suddenly took off, it more or less coincides with the hedge fund boom. This is because so many funds store excess cash in gold today, given the wild swings in currencies. Also, given riskier and riskier bets to outperform, gold is an attractive storage commodity to defend against the huge returns funds anticipate. In other words, gold is a harbinger of cash: as the price rapidly increases, it means hedge funds expect higher returns.
Oil: This goes without saying: we need lower oil prices in order to make growth sustainable. But we need them for a longer period of time, than say, two weeks.
The problem with the outlook described above is that many of those asset classes don't necessarily move naturally among one another in those different ways. But as with anything in the financial world, that's not to say they can't -- and won't.






Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:35PM
run up in gold coincided with deflation in the dollar; growth in HF was purely coincident (and perhaps cause as HFs sold dollars for carry trade).
that being said, all correlations between assets as you knew them have broken down. folks used to think crude down was equity positive, then they saw spector of deflation and shrinking global demand.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:35PM
This is how markets bottom.Sellers give up, buyers take control.All the fancy analysis and explanations are for shit,so look for a follow through rally over the next 2-3 trading days.
It could also be a sign that Obama hasn't won it yet that is putting a floor under stocks, but that might not sit well with plenty on this site or in the media.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:35PM
My first shout out to cluzo.
SPODE
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:35PM
Daniel, this is the dumbest thing I have ever read, and it shows you have no idea how the global economy works. I feel less smart for reading it, even. The middle east reliant on imports?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:36PM
This is how markets bottom.Sellers give up, buyers take control.All the fancy analysis and explanations are for shit,so look for a follow through rally over the next 2-3 trading days.
It could also be a sign that Obama hasn't won it yet that is putting a floor under stocks, but that might not sit well with plenty on this site or in the media.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:37PM
You hit it when she lets you hit it...
~Fake Kevin Federline
Posted by Daniel Harrison , Oct 16, 2008 4:38PM
@3 except for energy, yes
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:39PM
We're going to have another bear market rally?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:39PM
#3. Please if you are going to say something is incorrect, for the sake of those of us who are not so savvy, please state your reasons why. TIA
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:39PM
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:40PM
who the hell is daniel harrison
and what the hell is this
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:40PM
3 - what on earth does the middle east produce except for oil? sand?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:41PM
I've been one of your staunchest defenders, but this Econ 101 shit has gotta stop, Daniel. I'm a retail broker in VA and even I think that this is pretty stupid. And I'm one of the stupidest readers on this site.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:42PM
Who are you and what have you done with Bess?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:45PM
@3 are you living under a rock? Besides oil and camel shit they produce nothing
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:46PM
@12 and 9, seem as though the retard at 3 knows something we don't...
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:46PM
I always thought that the way capitalism works is that some companies in a bad economic "environment" for lack of a better term are either eaten by companies that are doing better or they go out of business.
Isn't that the way it has historically worked? Like Steve and Barry's and Linens and things have, you'll forgive me, thrown in the towel.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:46PM
@15
Are you kidding? What about shrill, tinny pop music and suicide bombers?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:46PM
This is nonsense.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:46PM
@12 i am a commodities hedge fund manager, what is oil?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:47PM
I'm sorry but did you come up with this entirely yourself?
I've never heard of "many" hedge funds storing money in gold, would love to see a source on that one...
The dollar was strengthening because everything else was even weaker. If you think the US stock market is bad, look at how Europe and the rest of the world is doing. The US has actually held up very well relatively speaking.
Finally, oil prices are falling because there is evidence of weak global demand and deflation. A fall in the price of oil is a symptom of a weak economy, not a harbinger of prosperity.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:49PM
Honestly people, if you really could call the bottom - why would you tell us?
Those that can't teach (or become brokers)
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:51PM
Daniel Harrison...please never post on dealbreaker again, I hate you
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:51PM
Since oil is on a fabulous sale do you think the US government is buying enough for the next hundred years?
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 4:52PM
All right, everyone stop the ad hominem attacks on Daniel. Yelling dumbass, even repeatedly, does nothing.
If you have a material complaint or hypothesis that sits counter to his argument, feel free to posit it.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 4:52PM
@24
Given their actions of late, I'd imagine the govt would be more inclined to pour billions into oil right now in an effort to increase the price
Posted by Headless Horseman , Oct 16, 2008 4:55PM
That's right...it's an old fashioned pile party and everyone's jumping on. Get him boys.
The brute force stupidity of Harrison's "contribution" almost knocked me on my back (masturbatory fodder for Bess).
Wow! Reading that was like watching a retard humping a door knob (imagery for DH).
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:00PM
um, what about housing market stabilization?
And the other shoe needs to drop - some hedge funds must fail.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:00PM
I hate to join the pile-on but Daniel, you can't try to BS this stuff. This reads like an Economics 101 paper that was prepared at the last minute by a student who was high for half the semester. F.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:04PM
"Gold is more a defense against earnings growth than inflation today."
WTF does that mean?
(I could repeat that question for any randomly chosen sentence in this post).
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:04PM
Seriously, leave the market musings to EP. This was just atrocious.
Posted by Headless Horseman , Oct 16, 2008 5:05PM
And the neck bone is connected to the...?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:06PM
WOW...you guys can read more of this garbage; it even has a link to his personal email address.
http://www.danielmarkharrison.blogs.com/
I feel sorry for all of you NYU alums...he is one of your own. Although, I guess I felt sorry for you guys before I even knew DH went there.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:07PM
I wanted to say something snyde about this article's implication that trading depends on "feeling flush" and "psychological impacts" but given the state of the markets and utter lack of alpha maybe he's on to something...
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:09PM
The banks will have a difficult time absorbing more trillions in home price reductions in the next 12 months.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:10PM
Agree with 29. This is not a site to BS on. At least some of us actually know what we are doing.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:16PM
I'd rather read Mordechai Chang explain how in college everyone eats a lot of pizza than this "analysis"
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:16PM
Agree, stick to writing for CNBC. Even my 5 year old thought this was stupid
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:18PM
With the huge drop in the price of oil, the Middle East oil companies are losing money !! And the world economy depends on Middle Eastern oil to survive !! So obviously we must send billions of bailout dollars to the Middle East !! They are too big to fail !!
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 5:24PM
hahaha.. well, I tried to stem the tide.
Daniel,
A little advice. If you're going to do global macro, make it interesting say something like:
With the price of oil below $70, this poses serious issues for many middle-eastern fuck-offs. For instance, Iran, who's economy is destitute on anything sub $70 can no longer purchase missile systems (DJNW) from Russia (see the purchase of 29? Tor-M1 missile systems last year..) and now Pakistan has to run to big-momma China (BBMG) for help (anyone remember Vietnam? That went well.)
You need to involve weapons, sex (possibly prostitution) and drugs whenever possible.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:33PM
Ok so. I think Daniel wanted to give a different tone to DB. Add something to it.. debate, idea generation. There are very street smart great people that comment on this site and... To discuss the more general picture with different clever educated people could be interesting and everybody with an open mind could see how useful is, to know in this markets, what could hurt your beliefs.
However, Daniel failed to achieve this due to his misinformation about economy, current situation, market principles and trading. He can however write very well. He can learn the rest. After all Fail, fail again, fail better.
Before I get a "too long didn't read" over an out.
Sic
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:38PM
@41 Please learn to write...I'd also appreciate it if you didn't give DH a HJ for being an idiot...
Posted by Headless Horseman , Oct 16, 2008 5:39PM
@40 Now there's an idea. Perhaps DH could give prostitution a whirl. Fair shot he'd be better suited as a cum dumpster than a financial journalist/pundit. Besides, I'm sure he's already TRIED HIS HAND at sex.
See what I just did there?
Get down,
HH
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 5:50PM
umm.. i don't know much, but i think expiration friday is the THIRD friday of the month. sigh.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:00PM
Yeah, gotta agree this post was the worst I've read on DB yet. I'll just second the comments above.
But the answer to 'when do we bottom?' is when the forced liquidations are done.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:03PM
umm tomorrow is the third Friday...
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:15PM
I'm surprised that so many 'informed' macro-economists had nothing else to say beside that DH pull this out of his ass.
So... besides when Fubu and KFC announce a merger...what does trigger a buy signal?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:20PM
wtf is this?
Posted by Anal_yst , Oct 16, 2008 6:22PM
Dan,
Don't give up dude,
The rest, give the man some time (1 month or so?) to adjust to DB
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:23PM
47- Once house prices start to bottom and the underlying collateral for so much of this mortgage paper stops deteriorating. Also when hedge fund liquidations run their course. Some uptick in just one macro number, be it jobs, or industrial production, or retail sales, would also be nice. Or when the S&P gets to ~500. Then you can buy and not worry about anything else.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:23PM
@1 when the market plunges, all correlations go to 1 because panicked investors sell anything and everything to raise cash.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:33PM
good to see you guys found somebody new to trash now that carney is gone. maybe now that you vented your frustration the market can rally tomorrow?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:37PM
If you guys are such big know-it-alls and know how everything works, then why is Wall Street neck-deep in shit? Please STFU!
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:38PM
Very bad post. I nearly killed myself reading it.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 6:44PM
I agree with 50 @ 45.
Daniel, you concentrated too much on how all the stars will align to help the global economy get on the road to recovery. But you missed the reasons why we are in so much trouble. Credit-fueled growth is over.
I think you have some good ideas but you just jumbled up everything. I think you had Dubai in mind when you talked about development in the Middle East being dependent on imports. A stronger dollar will definitely help but poor demand for oil will cancel it out. Ultimately, the currency peg is in trouble. The rest of the post is too jumbled: is there an asset bubble in gold? What about Yen?
You are lucky that all these know-it-all idiots have no credibility anymore. They are the laughing stock of the world.
Posted by Anal_yst , Oct 16, 2008 6:52PM
@ 53
Uh, not ALL of us f*cked up, but our bosses (bosses boss...) probably did
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 7:04PM
@ 53, are you a bank teller?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 7:17PM
love these douchebags who think a 4% move in a day was predictable like clockwork...
next time, let us know the day before when one of these entirely predictably massive runups will occur so we can all get rich, ok?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 7:19PM
"wild swings in currency" so funds put cash in gold?
fuctard, gold moves more on average than ANY currency per day
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 7:22PM
@57 no I am not a bank teller. Sadly, this is what you guys can come up with now. Even a bank teller has more credibility. Get out of your little world.
Anal_yst, I understand. But people here are showing the same arrogance that the bosses showed. After looking at all the stories and posted material about events that happened over the last year, I am convinced that the immediate cause of the disaster was that the bosses were so confident and arrogant. They never thought such things could happen to them.
I guess arrogance and nasty behavior comes with the profession but now it just looks plain silly. Somebody talked about how Finance is good way to get into powerful political positions. Well, there was a time when being in the Big 3 was the way to get ahead. When Finance is no longer lucrative, the political influence will be gone and a new sector will come to the fore.
Also @ Anal_yst, I wasn't directing any of this at you.
End of rant.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 7:24PM
@53 who said they didn't know what they were doing?
@58 sure, BUY BUY BUY tomorrow. then call me in the morning. douche.
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 7:32PM
How do you know where the bottom is? I’ll tell you how you know.
You know where the bottom is when you wake up, but you can only open one eye because the other one is sewn shut by mayonnaise that’s hardened for hours, and you’ve got some kind of goddamn aluminum foil wrapped around both of your feet for no obvious reason. You look down and sparky the fucking terrier is licking peanut butter off your testicles and after rubbing your head in a vial attempt to remove the pain you get to wonder for a second where all of your fucking hair is. The fact that you now have nipple piercings dances for a second in your frontal lobe and then you’re overtaken by the sheer fear of the full sized donkey that’s found its way into the living room of your Upper East Side apartment.
That’s the fucking bottom.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 8:12PM
Phobos, I enjoyed post no. 62. But there are many ways to experience the bottom.
One is to look angry, paranoid, and geriatric on a split television screen during your third, make it or break it, Presidential debate.
Another is to by $13 worth of JPM stock, and $13 worth of GS stock, and just for laughs, see how far below $26 you can fall.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 8:14PM
Oh yeah, I couldn't figure out if Daniel Harrison was serious or this was more of the satire DB is famous for.
Either way, the post was totally perplexing.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 8:38PM
Anyone know what the "Four Factors" associate numbers were?
LOL to all the posts here... the oldies-but-goodies such as "i am a commodities hedge fund manager, what is oil?" and the like actually are getting funnier...
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 16, 2008 8:51PM
Central Banks in full retreat to safety... do you feel safer?
http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/files/2008/10/frbny-oct-08-1.png
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 9:00PM
here's the bottom: @ trough of the last recession, S&P traded @ ~ 12x. EPS for '08 is expected to be $68, so guess what? Long way down to 816...
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 9:07PM
I want my mommy
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:11PM
What the fuck is this crap? You. are. an. idiot. Stop polluting DB--I really hope you weren't a permanent hire, because they can't fire your ass quickly enough.
Options expirations...dumbass.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:35PM
funds hold gold instead of cash?
HAHAHHA
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:40PM
@70 actually, they do. i run a medium sized fund and we frequently hold gold instead of cash.
its also interesting noone has posited an alternative idea to daniel's theory.
-- HF
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:48PM
Is it true that the vaults in Switzerland are so packed they can't fit any more gold? Or was this guy just trying to be interesting after he bought me that drink?
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:48PM
I like the way 67 thinks. S&P is still too expensive. Other than retail and financials (and some stocks that hedge funds ran a train on), stuff still needs to go down.
We'll eventually get there in one day. No prediction on the size of the day.
-
As an addendum, CNBC should shut down Fast Money for talking up the AKS and other commode slime trade the day before hedge fund liquidation. Are these guys on hedgie payroll or what - you just got a bunch of retails to trade against hedge funds in need of cash. Gee, I wonder how that went.
Mackie at least had the guts to call shit like AK Steel for what it was.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:53PM
He also said I should go out and buy gold and take delivery. Where the heck would I put gold if I took delivery? I told him I am going to treat myself to a nice gold bracelet instead and he said no, buy gold. Now I'm wondering why he was so insistent.
Posted by guest , Oct 16, 2008 10:56PM
"the day before hedge fund liquidation."
Is tomorrow a special day. I thought it was just options expiration. What else did I miss today?
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 16, 2008 11:02PM
@62, You Sir appear to know a bottom when you see one... I was thinking of Dean Warners office as I read your post... TY
~SEG
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 11:08PM
@SEG
HA. It was written for comical parody more than anything. I was just thinking about Daniels post..
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 16, 2008 11:13PM
When I think of an unnamed Chicago HF shop... for some reason I keep thinking of this scene... I can see Kenny driving... racing home to deposit the cash, at the teller window... before the margin call is due...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHa_jqxnn4o
I miss the great one of our generation...
~SEG
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 11:24PM
Un-named Kenny run hedge fund? God the possibilities are endless..
Yeah, I miss him too.
You know, in that mess up there (post) -- there's actually two or three valuable ideas.
On the light side, I don't think I've ever been in an option contract I couldn't close by a counter trade, and options expire on Saturday. So half of the comments are a little off..
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 11:33PM
(yes, I understand I'm being a technical bitch in re: saturday, but I'm tired, so it's fun)
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 16, 2008 11:38PM
Phobos, I agree... however being such a weak kneed self made billionaire who needs to tell a couple of girls to remove comments from their blog, cause he cant handle the possible impact of the comments... shows he is not the master risk taker he presented himself to be. I fact he is a ...
I just deleted about 250 words worth of additional comments that don't need to be said yet, but which I am sure will be said sooner rather then later.
This shit show we exist in is not healing itself. Crazy Bullish Kids calling the bottom aside, we have lower lows to set and the impact of Boomers bailing out and not returning to the equity market, has not even been discussed yet.
There is going to be a lot of Boomer funds going into state/specific district muni direct investments. 4-5%+ double tax free sure beats loosing 40% of your net worth in a bad two weeks. The equity risk has now been hammered into the retirement generation... as TGFD has shown us.
For context, I am the youngest of 7. My oldest sib's are grandparents and in their retirement cycle now, (I am a parent but not a grant parent yet).
They are flat equitys, and wont be back. They need revenue to live on now... not growth... they wont return and they wont take the risk.
I doubt after the last few weeks that others will be rushing to fill their long term void on the larger scheme of things...
~SEG
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 11:44PM
@SEG
These are valid points, with drastic consequences. In what you said, you have to examine that the money by and large that people have saved is not enough to retire on. If they don't look for growth (especially given their recent losses) then we'll be living in a welfare state.
That aside, I can not fault Bess, EP, or any of the staff for bending to the will of Big K.
I'm not worried about the economy. Here's why: selfish people often carry things forward. We're graduating new kids ever day, we've got smart ones sitting in good chairs now. They're greedy, their anxious, and they're able: we'll find a way to carry forward. I don't have the privledge of children yet (which as it turns out is good, as I find myself in the job market now). As that is the case, I'm not yet the moral vanguard I suppose I will be.
We'll be fine.
Posted by Phobos , Oct 16, 2008 11:48PM
bending to the will wasn't a good choice of words.. at all.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 16, 2008 11:57PM
Phobos,
My oldest is a sophomore at UC Santa Cruz. She lives two blocks from the beach and is going pre med. It appears she knows how to live well and make sure Dad pays the bills for a good decade or so.
In my family, there is an art to how much each generation works the older one for the longest free ride. I think I managed 4 colleges and a University during my tours of the higher education circuit on the family dole.
It got so bad, one of the places mailed my mom a degree... when they realized how many I had built up but had not ummm...
anyway... point is... I agree the next generation will come to rescue... but we have crashed this sucker pretty good and the real damage is in things like the letters of credits not being accepted right now.
The international export trade is dead in its tracks and each day it stays stalled Big Billions of economic capacity is idled.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alFFUQ8a.WZM&refer=home
"...``Letters of credit and the credit lines for trade currently are frozen,'' Khalid Hashim, managing director of Precious Shipping Pcl, Thailand's second-largest shipping company, said in Singapore yesterday. ``Nothing is moving because the trader doesn't want to take the risk of putting cargo on the boat and finding that nobody can pay.'' "
If that does not put ice into your veins, your Vulcan or something... lol
~SEG
Posted by Phobos , Oct 17, 2008 12:03AM
You're lucky, as are your children. My parents have money, but I was made to work through college (waiting tables, whatever).
We'll be fine. And if we're not, I can shoot straight: I'm originally from the south.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 12:10AM
Phobos, I just picked up a HiPower that a friend didn't need anymore. He has a tricked out one and a plain Jane. So I finally got around to taking care of that caliber. I am not suggesting roving bands of Mad Max types.
I am talking about international commerce slowing to a trickle for a multi Quarter period, while the banking system is restructured so that some form of trust is rebuilt again.
Where supply's of goods are constrained for a period of time such that the basic cost of goods goes up in a period where employment continues to drop.
~SEG
Posted by Daniel Harrison , Oct 17, 2008 12:15AM
What's the best drink after a day like this?
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 12:19AM
Single Malt straight no water chaser for you, after the ass chewing you got on this thread.
~SEG
Posted by Phobos , Oct 17, 2008 12:22AM
Daniel,
The one that's free, man, as always.
You'll be alright.
SEG
Yeah, paper needs to get moving, but I think that reducing the velocity in the short run is the right thing. It kills the over-extended nature of the modern consumer.
Posted by Daniel Harrison , Oct 17, 2008 12:35AM
SEG & Phobos --
Rioja '95 will have to suffice.
For what it's worth - and perhaps want of yet more abuse - it's interesting in the U.S. how people automatically associate a market decline with an economic decline. Granted, in a free market economy, the stock market weighs heavily on consumption etc. But of all the places I've been, I've never seen a country so obsessed with its stock market and potential ramifications on the economy.
That's of course why this country has become so economically powerful, but it can also lead to misinformation. Saying we are in "the greatest crisis since the Great Depression" for example: that's an analogy you only hear in America. And it's probably wrong, given inflation and unemployment are not in double digits, and we haven't had an official GDP decline yet.
That said, the U.S. needs someone who can manage fiscal policy with the kind of discipline that is unpopular with voters: i.e. to pay down debt. (Whoever that may be).
But because of the U.S.'s intense focus on its stock market, the rest of the world tends to make incorrect assumptions about the state of its economy when there is a market selloff. They don't understand, for instance, that every state is vastly different in resources/productivity etc. - and that THAT is the economic scenario, not the state of the Dow or S&P (or Nasdaq in 2001). This country is in a much stronger position than many realize: it's why there are so many people banging on the door to get in every year.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 12:41AM
Daniel, the US did not become powerful because of our stock market. We became powerful because we have two oceans defending us while we used our economic factory and raw materials supplys to out produce the world during WWII.
The structure that exists today, and is failing today, is from the Bretton Woods meetings of 44...
This is event is now causing currency moves measured in single and double digit moves in a day. This is way beyond the stock market. This is about a break down in the economic fabric that make this nation and this work work.
The great decoupling is happening at this moment and it has nothing to do with equity stock prices...
~SEG
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 12:44AM
Ok way to much speed typing in that last one... sorry gang...
~SEG
edited version reads as follows...
Daniel, the US did not become powerful because of our stock market. We became powerful because we have two oceans defending us while we used our economic factory and raw materials supply's to out produce the world during WWII.
The structure that exists today, and is failing today, is from the Bretton Woods meetings of 44...
This event is now causing currency percentage moves measured in single and double digit in a day. This is way beyond the stock market.
This is about a break down in the economic fabric that make this nation and this world work.
The great decoupling is happening at this moment and it has nothing to do with equity stock prices...
~SEG
Posted by Daniel Harrison , Oct 17, 2008 12:51AM
SEG --
I'm saying that the US is obsessed with its stock market to a degree that other countries are not. And so it should be.
The US pioneered capital raising and a culture of retail investing in a way that beforehand, other countries only glimpsed. Britain (where I'm from), for example, was much later to adopt the investment approach, and instead tended to pile everything into deposit accounts -- which got us nowhere.
Obviously the problems we are in go beyond issues of equity valuation etc., but if you're from Thailand, for example (where my godchildren are from) -- despite the credit and stock market woes, despite the hits to the 401K's -- people are still envious of the opportunity and growth potential here. They still want to come, in any market environment. That's incredibly powerful, and can't be discounted.
Posted by Phobos , Oct 17, 2008 12:53AM
Further, the economy is based on the market to a point, in such that consumer spending and confidence are dependent on the market fluctuations.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 1:05AM
Daniel, while many 3rd world nations now enjoy access to 1st world amenities, their basic infrastructure are not up to first world expectations.
Its that simple. While we mock our lessors in the US, our poor would be considered rich in any other third world nation.
We don't exist with regular army coups, and running combat with our neighbors, and religious headless wars...
Any person who has had access to first world air conditioning as I call it, will want to escape the combat zones to try to live the dream. I know I would.
Yes the US invented this lifestyle... and part of the problem now is that there is not enough basic natural resources to allow everyone on the planet to live the US decadent lifestyle...
~SEG
who is drinking a much cheaper Merlot then Daniel-San...
Posted by Daniel Harrison , Oct 17, 2008 1:15AM
SEG -- That's very true. The Chinese "middle class" that the media so readily eulogize as bastions of the success of markets are living worse off than the lowest 1% in this country. Middle class there means you got to get out of a coal-mining town to go to Shanghai and share with five other people you don't know in the space of an apartment smaller than a studio in the East Village in Manhattan.
Assumptions that America is screwed are false -- that's what I'm saying. The US dollar will rise, big time (when the country pays down its debt); oil will fall as the myth of China's (admittedly astonishing) growth gets found out for the standard hype that it is.
That said, don't underestimate the value of gold is Asia. Gold and real estate to the Chinese are what equities are to Americans: everyday assets. Everyone on some tiny level owns them.
Everyone can of course live the US lifestyle, it'll just take much, much longer than the media lead us to believe it will.
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 1:24AM
When do we "hit a bottom"?
Hint -- we're not even close:
http://graphics.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/26/weekinreview/27leon_graph2.large.gif
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 1:31AM
SEG, Phobos, and Daniel: I love you guys (except for Daniel, who I'm not yet sure about) but you need to stop drinking and posting and get some sleep.
Tomorrow may or may not be another day.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 1:38AM
@98, drinking hummm...
sleep... Na, I will have enough time to sleep when they finally get around to burying me.
4 Hours a night is more then enough... for weeks...
I wonder if Dealbreaker would consider an "After Hours @ Dealbreaker" type of night shift for some of us who track the world markets as they open for tomorrow each day.
I have just finished the Asian shift and we are now moving towards open in Europe. Speaking of which, as anyone see CNBC's overseas talent? They eye candy is better on CNBC World then our domestic version of the money pit...
~SEG
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 1:41AM
@SEG:
Your underlying assumption is that for third world nations to live a US life style they must consume the same amount of resources. This is NOT the case. As resources become more scarce efficiency improvement will become the new oil. The US and the third world will replicate the current US life style while consuming fewer resources. The asian model of economic growth through export expansion is unsustainable and the current chinese model is FUBAR but in the long run (when we are all dead) the chinese will be able to approximate the US standard of living.
After their impending war with Russia, that is.
There no need to pay down US debt as long as the dollar remains the reserve currency of the world. Due to a systemic demand for dollars it is actually in our interest to print as many as possible. As you note, this systemic demand is a product, solely, of out air craft carriers.
However, the chinese will soon be forced for decrease their rate of development of anti ship cruise missiles giving us more time to work on reducing the radar and sonar signatures of our ships and perpetuating US hegemony.
Posted by Phobos , Oct 17, 2008 1:53AM
Thanks, @98
@100
The lack of resources SEG mentioned is crucial to market determination and success. In short, it's the fundamental of all markets: that there's a scarcity of resources and those resources have to be priced (if you ignore recent trends in account that is) to a market and thus made purchasable.
Your argument, which we'll call TheStarTrekArgument(tm) for sake of efficiency, is however, correct. In the future there will be a situation such that efficiencies have accounted for shortages in goods.
I like your play out of the future. With Pakistan moving to secure China as a trade partner/Czar and the Iranians moving towards Russia, compounded with the effect that crude oil's lower pricing is going to guarantee the re-allocation of resources to the Asian board (from the US) -- and probably the renunciation of the US currency as the standard mark (at least, in verbiage) -- we could see a shift.
SEG --
Gotta love the asian money pits.
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 1:53AM
@100, I find very little to disagree with what you have posted... very little... in fact...
~SEG
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 2:03AM
@100, the only part we disagree is that you have extrapolated your expectations of my comments to a place I never said was the case.
If we skip the first part about my expectations that incrementally each citizen will consume the same amount of raw resources to achieve the same first level of world status, we are pretty much reading the same bible.
~SEG
Posted by poppabear , Oct 17, 2008 2:06AM
It's very dangerous to try and call a bottom in this market.
We're in the grips of a long prolonged economic contraction, which will probably last for many years. The only assets that will be worth anything are commodities, but commodities won't start to take off until the mass liquidations of hedge funds dry up.
Central Banks are injecting massive amounts of fiat liquidity into the financial system while pulling out their own principal, which is causing these huge swings back and forth.
This unwinding of the quadrillion dollar derivatives bubble is completely unprecedented and I don't even think these government clowns know what the results will be.
Precious metals are the safest place to be and the only real currency.
The following is an excellent article on the calamity we are dealing with right now... http://www.bearmarketinvestments.com/death-march
Posted by Phobos , Oct 17, 2008 2:10AM
@104
We disagree on so many different areas of what you just posted that I'm afraid it's time for me to pass out.
--unless of course SEG can convince DB to hire me as the night guy :)
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 2:14AM
Nite Phobos... sleep well... 104 is just a troll... with at least enough class to babble for a bit before hocking his site for hits...
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 3:28AM
"gold is an attractive storage commodity to defend against the huge returns funds anticipate"
this is just priceless.
Is this The Onion?
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 3:35AM
Hey SEG, when you follow the foreign markets, how much of an indicator do they serve to tell you if our market will be up or down?
Posted by StupidEquityGuy , Oct 17, 2008 3:51AM
@108, I have found lunch London as the best moment in time when a major swing is going to hit the global markets. This is not empirical data... this is gut speaking.
I have followed the Asian to London open trade in SPX and pondered playing it regularly. There are times you can have a 80% correlation in an Asian move up being erased by the punters when they show up early to work before it reappears after open. We call it the eraser trade.
However with current vol in the world market, I would not bet on any trade lasting or working longer then one day. It will be months to years before obvious trends work again.
~SEG
Peace everyone... be careful tomorrow/today, the options guys want to smooth volatility to drop their short vol premiums. The rest of the market does not care.
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 9:39AM
DH - "I'm saying that the US is obsessed with its stock market to a degree that other countries are not. And so it should be."
Point of information, the fetid pool that is London cares just as much.
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 11:28AM
gold down 3% as of now...but of course, the currencies are moving WILDLY more than that....fuctardathon '08, right here right now
Posted by guest , Oct 17, 2008 1:49PM
Hey, DB, I love SEG's suggestion that there be a "DB After Hours" for the nighthawks. In this market, there's probably plenty of us.
SEG, I do watch the CNBC European and Asian correspondents in the early morning hours. I don't know about how they rate as "eye candy," but there does seem to be more women than men, and the women are all intriguing, each in her own way.
Posted by guest , Oct 19, 2008 1:17PM
The market hits a bottom when a higher low is achieved, and that's in hindsight.
Posted by shalimar , Oct 21, 2008 2:20AM
May I recommend leaving the serious writing to Bess and EP?
Danny boy, you do a great job maintaining the daily links. Don't work yourself too hard trying to make sense of "numbers", "economy", "currencies" and all that jazz.
Posted by guest , Oct 23, 2008 2:54AM
when a higher low is in. Leave the predictions of calling a market bottom to the folks at CNBC
http://www.weeklyta.blogspot.com