CNBC reports Count Vikula has sent a message to Washington re: taxing the hell out of bonuses from any bank that receive TARP funds, arguing that everyone who's caused Citi to lose money is no longer with the company, and this isn't fair. Which kind of makes sense!
Full memo sent to the Little Viks via the Journal:
To:All Citi ColleaguesFrom: Vikram Pandit
Date: March 20, 2009
Re: Washington Update
Our industry has recently seen a tide of negative sentiment rising in Washington, D.C. regarding compensation. Of course, some of it is warranted. But I take exception when there is a discussion about spreading the blame to each and every employee in the financial services industry. At our company, we removed the people responsible for Citi's financial distress and acted fast to strengthen and streamline the business, and install new risk processes and new risk personnel. You have been invaluable in our collective efforts to put the company on solid footing.
The work we have all done to try to stabilize the financial system and to get this economy moving again would be significantly set back if we lose our talented people because Congress imposes a special tax on financial services employees. It would affect countless number of people who will find it difficult, if not impossible, to pay back the bonuses that they earned.
I want you to know that we are working in every appropriate way with policymakers in Washington, and with other financial institutions and industry associations, to come to agreement on a constructive industry compensation system that is good for the company, the financial system and the country. We will continue to do everything we can to ensure that we can pay our employees fairly, reflecting their market value and hard work, especially during these challenging times.I know it is difficult, but no matter what happens in Washington our prospects will be best served if we all continue to work hard helping clients and customers around the world and improving the performance of the business and speeding our return to profitability.
So while you continue to focus on our clients and quality execution, please rest assured that senior management and experts in Washington are focused on these developments and trying to address issues raised in the debate with clarity about the real facts.
Thank you for your unwavering commitment and dedication.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:30PM
If any bank doesn't deserve bonuses b/c they would have failed w/o governement money and everyone would have been out on their asses anyway, it is ShittyGroup.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:31PM
We need more of this. The industry would be well served to start buying commercial time.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:33PM
Ok, someone explain to me what targets were met to achieve these bonuses? Was it showing up for work >80%? How does a company go belly up and everyone deserve a bonus? That is what curious minds want to know.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:35PM
bad wall st. PR departments + an idiotic "main streeT/Congress = no bonus for you
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:38PM
2, so you think spending taxpayer money on ad's explaining why spending taxpayer money to reward failure is a good idea too?
Keeping talent? You know if you have an old broken down car and the engine is shot and the gas tank has holes in it. Having awesome wheels and tires really means nothing.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:40PM
I think this is a pretty accurate and fair assessment - taking a knee-jerk reaction against an entire industry is not an appropriate way to lock down on people responsible for predatory lending, taking unneccessary risk, etc.
Glad to see someone has finally came out with a valid counter-argument and everyone should be contacting their Congress representatives and senators with similar arguments. To make a policy change is one thing, but to act out of mob-rage is another.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:42PM
Hi, we are Citi and we never sleep. When I say 'we' I mean only the people that did not cause the old Citi to tank. Those people are gone. The people that remain are not rich, but we would like to keep the same old incentive structure that caused the the people that tanked Citi to become rich. So please, don't change our incentive structure and we promise we won't sleep, that is, until we tank Citi again.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:43PM
Why do all his "memos" seem to be filled with platitudes, blather and general vagueness?
There was no one line there I could lock on to and say...hmm, that's interesting and makes sense.
Vik has the worst writing skills ever.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:45PM
Would people stop talking about "predatory lending" and start referring to "greedy and idiotic borrowers"? You bought a house you couldn't afford from your local sleazebag mortgage broker and you think you're now qualified to make strategic decisions on compensation policy? Sign me up for the coming class war here.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:45PM
@7 So what happens to the people that spent the Bonus? Garnishing wages? Forced liquidation of assets? Can't believe this is ok with anybody.
Posted by legal eagle , Mar 20, 2009 4:46PM
Fight the power Vik! Now would be an awesome time for some random country to ease its incorporation/corporate laws and offer loans to pay off TARP money to any bank that is willing to incorporate in its jurisdiction. It seems that daily the US is getting less and less competitive.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:51PM
@10 The tax is for bonuses paid this year (2009) - tax due 4/2010. If someone received a bonus in January and has already blown the whole thing, then they might not be so good at managing money.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:52PM
"We removed the people responsible..."
What about that guy who sold his overpriced hedge fund to Citi, that they had to then close and write off? Cost them nearly a billion. Is he still around?
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:54PM
12 I think many of them have already proven time and time again, they are not so good at managing money. That is how this whole thing began.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:54PM
"The Triumphant Return Of Tricky Dick(Nixon): Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner Is Still Lying And We Prove It"
http://bit.ly/BLbyd
The writer there always puts in photos and today he has some of Lennon, Elvis and Nixon.
Sexy Derivative
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 4:55PM
"The Triumphant Return Of Tricky Dick(Nixon): Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner Is Still Lying And We Prove It"
http://bit.ly/BLbyd
The writer there always puts in photos and today he has some of Lennon, Elvis and Nixon.
Sexy Derivative
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 5:26PM
What does market pay mean when all the banks are on life support? Without government bailouts, all the banks would likely have had to make the hard choices like cutting bonuses on their own. When every other industry suffers, the employees make big sacrifices in jobs and pay. Why should banks be any different? Otherwise government bailouts could be considered as compensation insurance. By keeping the existing incentive structure, the government is defining the market pay!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 5:52PM
How are we better off as a society when capital is tied up in the hands of now insolvent banks and bankrupt pay scales that ultimately benefit a "select" group of people?
These failing financial companies and their institutional greed have essentially been leveling a tax on ALL BUSINESSES and INDIVIDUALS for years. Can anyone say with a straight face that excessive pay and multi-million dollar payouts to these hi-fliers DON'T end up costing every business and person in this country extra in the fees that are paid to start new businesses. Ultimately, someone pays for it! Money that should be going to start new business creating something "tangible" instead now re-line the pockets of Wall Street.
Why should anyone give a damn about any of these banks and what happens to their high earners...we should be supportive so that the many can reward the few?
Good luck with selling that!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:04PM
You limousine liberals can call your pals Schumer, Dodd, and Corzine to try to reverse the mob rule. Oh, and Obama too. They gladly took your checks in the last few years. Let's see if they take your call to stop this train wreck.
-- Rare Republican in Manhattan
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:06PM
copied from wsj:
FACT:
1. Most of those who are responsible for the financial meltdown were already removed from the firm.
2. The people leftover are working hard to fix the mess their predecessors have given them.
3. Majority of the people being targed had nothing to do with the mortgage mess in the first place. I am talking about investment bankers, stock analysts, IT , HR, Legal, Foreign exchange traders, etc. They are hard working people like you and me. A small fraction of them make over $ 1 mm. If you take away that 1mm from people who had 10 mm in the bank, they will not suffer much. But how about a junior investment banker who works 80 hours a week, whose net worth is 300K and you take 150K from it ? Has he or she really done anything that justifies this confistication ?
If there is justice, Congress should go after Chuck Prince ( former CEO of Citi) , Stan O’neal ( former CEO of Merrill) Tom Maheres ( Former head of Global Markets of Citi) . Dow Kim ( Former head of Global Markets of Merrill) , and all the crooks that left or were fired but took hundreds of millions of dollars with them.
If there is justice, Congress should set a higher bar ( like $1 mm or even $500K) to tax. $250k ( after tax ~$120) for a working couple with two kids in NYC is not an easy life folks in Alabama imagine considering a two bedroom rental easily cost $ 5000.
All in all, the mob mentality hurts a lot of innocent, rank and file, hard working and honest people. 90% of the victims are not executives and barely go by with what they ear day to day.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:06PM
Wow, all those MBAs and advanced degrees and the players
haven't figured out that Uncle Sam doesn't work for Wall Street it works the other way around!
Just goes to show how out of step Treasury and Congress are in allowing bonuses in the first place. All of the groups involved in this mess are such "nice" people because the money isn't coming from their pockets!
Such a simple idea and yet so completely over a lot of heads.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:17PM
Vik you hack. You should give back all the money you received for that crappy bucket shop you called a hedge fund.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:18PM
3. Majority of the people being targed had nothing to do with the mortgage mess in the first place.
While I share some of your sympathy here, employees at firms that go bankrupt earn nothing and will likely never collect past due wages. That's the alternative without taxpayer aid, and let's not pretend the money will ever be coming back. The government is spending tremendous sums to keep these people employed at all, and those remaining in their jobs should be grateful for that sacrifice.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:27PM
@13 is a D- student not even fit to be a Citibank teller.
The guy who sold his overpriced hedge fund is obviously not the problem! It's the guy who bought it that was the biggest fool of all! Yes, that guy had been fired. He was last seen at FoxyLady - STILL DANCING!!!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:45PM
Wall Street Bonus = the added cost to do business in this coutnry (effectively a tax since failing financial institutions are partly owned by gov't) + drag on business development since money pools in fewer hands.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 6:55PM
@24
Yes, you're right, and that is why the U.S. Government is not going to buy the B.S. that Vikram is selling. This time it is going to be Viki-baby's turn to get on the main stage and start swinging around the ole' stripper pole.
@25
Yes, exactly, these institutions are a total drag. I think, since this is a national emergency and all, that the U.S. Government should draft all of the employees at TARP institutions. Boom, you get a solder's salary and a cot in your cube. Once the banking system is fixed, Uncle Sam will discharge you. This is a great solution going forward, even better than taxing bonuses.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:09PM
@25 LOL...yes...unfortunately I don't think they are qualified to join the military...our military actually does something of value!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:09PM
@26 LOL...yes...unfortunately I don't think they are qualified to join the military...our military actually does something of value!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:20PM
@26 they'd need a really creative moniker...
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:36PM
@ 20, dead on. If i bring in an 8 figure revenue for the bank why am i not entitled to AT LEAST 1% of that? Does that make me evil? Is it okay for busloads of 'working families' to roll by my house in southern ct and throw shit on my lawn? I didn't cause this mess, my desk made a shit ton of money over the past few years. Wake the fuck up, if you claw back my dough i'm not paying you fuckers to make my food, mow my lawn, fix my cars, sell my clothes, or drive my ass home after a 23 hour workday. Look at what's happening to all the smaller shops in NYC, vacancies everywhere. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. America was founded on your ability to come from nothing and prosper. If you don't like how much i(we) get paid, study hard, apply for a wallstreet gig and work your way up like the rest of us had to. it's not my fault you don't make as much as me. that's your problem. you don't like it, fix it. Obama policies ain't gonna make you rich morons...he's just forcing this country into mediocrity. Poor people don't create jobs.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:50PM
@30 - but, you work for an insolvent firm. The liabilities there exceed the assets. Who cares if your desk made money, it did not make enough money to keep your company a going concern. You failed, and your incentive pay structure failed you. No one would care about your pay if your firm was not insolvent, so why don't you work on fixing that problem? It is clear to me that bonuses should be paid in company stock or options since this whole "desk" mentality is stupid and creates massive instability within companies.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:53PM
@30
you are a fool and a lunatic.
get used to the new reality or go to work in another industry.
cuomo's bag man.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:58PM
@31
i'm not 30, but here's why it matters. if they hired me to make serious money and agreed to pay me in return for it, and they agreed in writing, then i should be paid for delivering.
as for your solution, i didn't bargain for some bullshit equity pmt that will either be locked up or impossible to alienate. if they want to negotiate a stock piece going fwd, that's one thing. btw if you ever rec'd a big bonus paid in stock you'd never want one again.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 7:59PM
31. my firm isn't insolvent, we have no problem paying our short term debt and have plenty of cash on hand, we are in no way in danger of defaulting. the risk you run when you don't pay your producers and your support staff is that the best people will leave. we already have many of our top producers walking out to go to private firms on a daily basis. those of us with loads of unvested incentive pay cannot afford to leave. that leaves you with a zombie bank full of less talented and non motivated people. moreover, i can't do anything to fix the problem within my firm, my concern is my product and my customers, thats all i have control over. i did not fail, my support staff did not fail. the guy who fixes my computer did not fail, yes i agree other idiots who created and purchased halfassed products failed...but if i and every other producer take my book of biz and my support staff with me and walk away the institution will surely fail as a whole...think about it. it's a sure recipe for brain drain. in addition, how is raising the corporate tax going to make my firm compete on the global stage? why wouldn't i take my book and go work for a foreign bank? would that not send the us further into the abyss?
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:01PM
@30
Let me put this in terms that you can understand. Suppose you took out a loan and bought 1000 brand new BMWs. Next you sold them for $10,000 a piece bringing in some great revenue. Now, of course, you are ready for your bonus, let us say 10% or $1M. Did you create jobs? Are you evil?
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:02PM
@30
Unbelievable..what a complete bunch of horse shit...you aren't coming from nothing and prospering...you are likely a cog in a system that maybe worked hard, it's not clear exactly what anyone does for a wallstreet "gig" these days...profits seem illusory at best...with wallstreet driving a false economy (you do take credit for that)
Look in the mirror for the mediocrity!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:08PM
35, not sure where you come from, but bmw's don't trade at 10k unless they are missing an engine and all four wheels. 36, how can you question where i came from? let me assure you that my family growing up was extremely poor and i busted in my ass in public school such that i could obtain a full ride in college which led me to wall street. there's nothing illusionary about buying something at '5' and selling it at '10' that's real profit.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:11PM
@ 30 They just don't get it.
Just Shrug.
Gotta go to a Tea Party - see you there.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:11PM
contracts are the foundation of capitalism....
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:13PM
contracts are the foundation of civilization...
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:15PM
@ 39
then, there's a big crack in the foundation.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:16PM
@41
there's a big crack in your ass
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:20PM
companies who lose talented people because they cannot pay them what they contractually agreed to go out of business. this isn't sparta, no one sticks around 'for the good of the company.' if you have mouths to feed at home and a mortgage to pay you leave and go where you get paid for what you do.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:24PM
@37 I understand you, but you have to suffer for the sins of your brethren. your group may not have done half-assed trades, but your firm did. and the too-big-to-fail argument is getting tired. AIG is too big to fail, but sure enough, they are on course to be the world's biggest fail even though they have areas which make good money.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:24PM
@43
What about sticking around for the good of the country? Or don't you give a shit about that either?
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 8:30PM
@37 @44 again. sorry I hadn't seen the part about your firm being non-TARP. However, look at the bigger picture. Do you want China to keep buying USTs? Because if they don't, then we have a dollar crisis. So the US has to do something to show that they are serious about doing something other than print money. The only way they can claw back the obscene profits made by the folks at AIG and elsewhere is via taxes.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 9:27PM
44,45..
Allow me to explain counterparty risk...
If your counterparty fails on a hedge, you need to go out and cover your position at the current market price...which could be lightyears from where you originally put that trade on. A ripple effect will course through the system and could cause many financial institutions to fail as a result. (don't know where you were on "Lehman Sunday", we were all huddled around our machines covering our positions. AIG is a HUGE counterparty on many different types of contracts. If AIG triggers a 'default' the system undergoes a lot of stress.
-43..sticking around for the good of the country? What? Being able to afford my mortgage and put food on the table for my kids and enable them to go to whatever university they choose is how i'm doing 'whats right for the country' No one is going to have to bail me out. No one is going to have to pay for my healthcare or my kid's education. I've paid more in taxes than most americans make over the course of their lifetime as most well-paid wallstreeter's have. Enough is enough
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 9:31PM
btw, why aren't the people at the SEC, the various FED banks and the rating agencies being thrown to the populist outrage??? were they not the checks and balances in the system? did they not fail miserably? what about the various market risk teams at these banks, where were they when all this went down???? why do any of these assclowns still have jobs.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 9:35PM
120mm is roughly 10bps of the total amount the gov't shelled out to bail out aig...um maybe they should worry about the rest first.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 9:54PM
Can't we all just get along. Group hug.
Have a nice weekend Bess.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 10:31PM
@37
That's your struggle?..busting your butt in public school to get a full ride scholarship to college so you could get to Wall Street...do you actually repeat that to anyone in public? And somehow your story of struggle carries such acclaim that it merits mention on this forum. Give us a break!
Your story matters to that musty smelling...yellow pages thick...Wall Street social registry who would sneer at you behind your back for public school and look down on you for not having family resources to afford college -- you are clearly out to prove to someone you are deserving.
Your prize for all your hard work is now to watch your industry work for contract for the U.S. government. Great job!
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 10:40PM
People spend their bonuses before they get them. As soon as the bonus comes it goes to pay off all the debt and as down payments on new stuff. So what are they going to do if you spent it? How are they going to get it back?
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 10:52PM
Busting his ass in public school to be in wall street is hard shit.. I kid you not.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 11:43PM
43/47, then leave. There's a ton of laid off bankers to take your place. No one gives a fuck about you either way. The sooner all the "talent" leaves, the sooner the zombie banks can be placed into receivership and unwound. Spoon feeding failed institutions full of people vastly overestimating their self worth isn't going to solve anything. You're not irreplaceable, and no one owes you anything.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 11:47PM
"At our company, we removed the people responsible for Citi's financial distress"......
.....Along with removing a lot of other hardworking people that had nothing to do with Citi's distress. Over the next 12 months we will keep removing people that had nothing to do with Citi's distress because we, along with every other MAJOR, felt more compelled to lend blindly while chasing profits, than to perform our responsibility of due dilligence. (editor note: no sympathy here for the liar's who took the bank loans)
Further, we want to make sure that the all of the US of A knows that although we gave very small $3000 gift card bonuses to our top Smith Barney brokers last week, it should no means be construed as a token gesture. We gave those bonuses as a way of saying hardy "FUCK YOU to all of America!!! Even on the government dole, we do what we want, when we want". And we admire AIG stepping it up to a larger level this week. And I am quite certain that AIG will be knocked out of the news shortly, when the next US financial delivers its bonuses. We don't give a shit. GET IT?????!!!!!!! Now GET OUT!!!!
VIK
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 11:56PM
@37
I grew up rich and my parents paid full tuition at my private school and Ivy League university to subsidize other students like you who got a "full ride."
Think of your 90% bonus tax as repaying the favor to society.
Posted by guest , Mar 20, 2009 11:58PM
Anyone who talks about a "hard" life and "busting his ass" in public school, has no sense of context whatsoever. Absolutely NONE.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
Half the world's population lives UNDER $2.50/day. Just pause and reflect on that for a minute. If you still can't see the bigger context, you are truly clueless.
Instead of bitching and whining, consider yourself lucky to have won the ovarian lottery and being better off than 99.9% of the human race inspite of your (possibly) reduced bonus.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:00AM
"@30: If i bring in an 8 figure revenue for the bank why am i not entitled to AT LEAST 1% of that? Does that make me evil?"
No not evil at all. The problem is that when other employees drive your firm out of business, you get nothing. It's not fair, but that's life and that's the risk all employees run outside of Wall Street (and apparently Detroit). Why should you be treated differently?
"Wake the fuck up, if you claw back my dough i'm not paying you fuckers to make my food, mow my lawn, fix my cars, sell my clothes, or drive my ass home after a 23 hour workday. Look at what's happening to all the smaller shops in NYC, vacancies everywhere. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face."
So the government should up your salary so you can employ service sector employees? If we're going to stimulate the economy by just handing out money to people that haven't earned it, why not just increase welfare payments? If that's the only concern, they'll blow it faster than you will.
America was founded on your ability to come from nothing and prosper. If you don't like how much i(we) get paid, study hard, apply for a wallstreet gig and work your way up like the rest of us had to. it's not my fault you don't make as much as me. that's your problem. you don't like it, fix it. Obama policies ain't gonna make you rich morons...he's just forcing this country into mediocrity. Poor people don't create jobs.
If you don't like working for government pay, get a job at a bank that isn't being propped up by the government. Pretty simple solution.
And the idea that financial services is a stable engine of job creation is laughable. There's a difference between wealth and paper profits. If you actually create wealth, good for you. You should have no problem finding a better paying job, and living a good life. No one begrudges you that.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:18AM
@58 No matter how many sane posts you make, some people will never get it.
They think they are entitled to their share of "profits" as they did busywork for 100+ hours/week, period. Doesn't matter if their firm/NYC/the world goes to hell, they must get their share.
Anyone presenting a alternate view point is one of: a pinko, a peasant with a pitchfork, jealous, lazy-ass who couldn't "make it" to Wall St. I'm belong to none of those categories and I now realize the futility of trying to argue with these people IRL or anywhere else.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:25AM
@58
"If you don't like working for government pay, get a job at a bank that isn't being propped up by the government. Pretty simple solution."
I couldn't agree more. IE....
If you are a superstar attorney and you work for the DA, you might get a six figure salary. So you decide to quit your DA job and compete for a job making the riches at private firm billing at $800 per hour.
Well ...Mr. Investment banker at a TARP propped financial. You work for the fucking government now. So quit your "DA" job, and get on line for a job at a company that needs no Government dole. Find a home at Goldman or a hedge fund that truly needs no assistance. Maybe you, and a few of the other 1000's of unemployed investment bankers from Bear, Lehman, Citi, Merrill get one of the coveted spots.
But if you don't get a spot at a financial that needs no TARP assistance, SHUT YOUR FUCKING FLAN HOLE. Feel free to crawl back to your DA/Postal Worker/Civil Servant of an Investment Banker position at your local TARP-propped financial . And Don't cry about your your 6 figures with no bonus. My mailman doen't cry when I give him no bonus.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:36AM
@60
I agree with everything you said- except Goldman not needing government assistance. These are the shrewdest people in the world who bilked the US Treasury and Fed out of billions but still somehow wound up on death's door back in September (and pre-AIG bailout).
You can definitely add GS to the list of banks on the dole.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:45AM
it's all going as planned, sillyheads.
you never meant anything anyway.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:48AM
@51, 56,57,60...OPS guys? Internal counsel?
Don't cry to us when we take our business elsewhere and no one will hire you to clear their trades because you are out of a job! Douchebag!
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:50AM
what's up with the sudden influx of wallstreet haters on this forum?
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:55AM
In my opinion, even TARP receiving firms should do what they can to maintain some talent. Completely fucking their workers out of any discretionary pay will only hurt them in the end. You need talented experienced people on hand to pull you out of this crisis. Government salary is only going to get you government quality workers....
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:57AM
This is @ 60
Not a wall street hater. Not ops. I'm a wall streeter. Mid level management. Upper Upper level must realize that people are ANGRY,including me, and they cannot just do whatever they want anymore.
Their way is:
Tried. Done. Failed. Bankrupt without Uncle Sam.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:59AM
Note most firms are trying to RETURN tarp funds (JPM, GS) ie, the best ones left because they understand the implications the nuances of the agreement and how it will destroy their franchise.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 1:03AM
66, note the majority of people left aren't the upper upper level guys who drove their books into the ground. The majority of us left support and or run profitable businesses. Firms ought to come out of pocket to support and compensate these people fairly or they will tumble.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 1:30AM
@57, dunno if you've opened your eyes lately. there are way too many people on earth and not nearly enough resources to go around. In no way am i saying that i, you or anyone else who reads this forum is 'entitled to be' one of the lucky people who 'belongs' here. but let's face it, there's not enough to go around for everyone to live a comfortable, disease free safe life at current population growth rates.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 1:42AM
@56, perhaps if you earned your education and your 'shot' in life you'd feel differently instead of being a morally high douche face who has had everything handed to them in life except for an MD title, because hey, the buck stops somewhere. So take your popped collar and your upper east side douchebagery elsewhere. shouldn't you be playing 'ookie cookie' with your frat brothers in aspen tonight?
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 2:06AM
@every fuckin; ome of your asses.
wake up to the new reality of sacrifice,
Perhaps you've heard mention of the word,?
Suck it!!
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 8:47AM
"Fuck you, nationalized Citibank"
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c130f64d6f/the-new-f-ing-citibank
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 8:58AM
Soon from Congress:
Those responsible for sacking
the people who have just been sacked,
have been sacked.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 10:45AM
Not sure if anyone has made this comment on here but i have to get this off my chest...I'm sick of hearing people say that Wall Street never creating anything and that finance people need to go learn how to "make" something.
The reality is that financiers are merchants or traders of capital and merchants have led to some of the greatest improvements in living standards in history. America would never have even been settled without enterprising merchants and traders from Europe.
So don't get all high and mighty because you manufacture something or build something and can't understand that the flow of capital around the world is as vital as the flow of any other good.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 11:14AM
Why is it that we do not hear about the dividends (between 5%and 9%) that the Banks who recieved TARP money have paid to the Government? Where does that money go? And if they pass 90% tax law, the employees should just return the money to the firms and the Government will get squat. Lets see how many government jobs that would cost.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 11:35AM
I was let go from BofA, received basically no bonus, and am obviously not happy about it. The "beauty" of the situation is that all the ML guys got their significant bonuses paid in December, before the layoffs, and will not be affected by the 90% bonus tax. Of course, I blame Ken Lewis more than anyone. John Thain did quite a number on Lewis -- made him look like the idiot that he is.
If I try to be objective, I can understand how an outsider would say any TARP-financed company needs to conserve cash and should not be awarding rich payouts to employees. I also understand how well-intentioned bankers who had nothing to do with the crisis have to share the pain (I certainly am feeling the pain). But the $250k cap on family income is pretty low, especially for NYC, and considering the alternatives available. All of the talent will leave, and it's happening right now. MDs are constantly meeting outside the office and having interviews with other banks. The 90% bonus tax will only ensure that all the talent leaves. And the MDs will bring over the best VPs, associates and analysts (although they have to be careful to avoid a lawsuit). The foreign banks and non-TARP financed banks are loving it. Since there's so few deals, they now spend so much of their time interviewing and hiring senior talent for when the market returns. Just wait another few months, and you will start reading more and more about this talent drain. The ML guys in London are already halfway out the door. I know Congress thinks there's enough educated and experienced people to fill their shoes, but I'm skeptical that any revenue-generating finance professional with a family is willing to work for a $250k cap in NYC (that's pre-tax, remember). You'll get a lot of junior bankers, but they're not going to win many deals.
So, the talented bankers leave for non-TARP firms, they still make big dollars, and they no longer have a 90% bonus tax. You haven't really solved anything, just swapped out superior talent for inferior talent. If that's the objective, ok. But seems a strange way to expect a return on your investment. But I guess it really isn't being considered an investment. It's being considered a bailout or a drain of taxpayer dollars. Whole thing has been a shitshow from Day 1, and I thank both administrations for that.
Posted by Anal_yst , Mar 21, 2009 11:56AM
While I am less than ecstatic that I received goose-eggs in bonus and raise (despite taking on 2-3x more work), I think those of us still left would be better suited to quit our bitching and suck it up.
Bust all our asses for the next year or two and accept just base salary and use the bonus $ to pay back TARP funds and give Congress the middle finger.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:15PM
the force is strong within you, Anal_yst... one day you will advance, and I await the day on which you change your moniker to "PeeE"
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:28PM
Bullsh*t. I know for a fact that many who systematically made poor decisions that lead to losses are still there with big fat salaries while many, like myself, who tried to short-circuit the poor decision making for years got the boot because we were 'too expensive'.
A lot of $250+ earners earned it but many many did not. Tax should get tied directly to P&L with 12 month rolling net losses and affect the top 10% of earners within that P&L only.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 12:38PM
Anal_yst@#77...
TGFD always sees a good, common-sense, thoughtful vein in all your postings, and your #77 is no exception.
This thread is a particularly good forum for me to add that the "Best and Brightest" have had their way with the system for some time now. The depth of their poor record is indeed abyssal.
Perhaps is is time now for those of us who proudly consider ourselves to be among the "Less than Brightest" to have our say in how things move forward. I don't think we could do much worse.
Some "outside-the-box" thinking that the "Best" seem incapable of is necessary, and maybe the "Less" can deliver.
The Guy from Delaware
"Less than Brightest"
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 1:10PM
I didn't read the comments above...yet. But, I will. I am curious what perspectives there are out there.
That said, here is the real explanation to bonuses.
A guy is worth $300,000 on the street and is recruited to work at Citi for a base of say $120,000 and discretionary bonus of $180,000. Said discretionary is 80% quantitative and 20% qualitative. So, you hit your numbers and you are almost to the $300,000. You keep your politics to yourself and be a good citizen, you get almost all of your other 20%. Fine.
Then, you are forced to take 25% of your bonus (if you make over $100,000 in bonuses) and put them in mandatory deferred compensation. You are essentially locked in to the company. Watch out if you have a falling stock price. Also, watch out if the firm cuts you loose (even if you are not the issue) and you lose said 25%.
Okay, now you know what a typical employee's comp at Citi (and any other financial services firm) looks like.
You argue that they should return their compensation. You might be right. But, I can tell you that if you do that, this industry is over.
Is this what you all want? If so, I am going to short the financials.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 1:42PM
dead on 81!!! 71 you are a tool. how did your newspaper delivery route go this morning?
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 3:07PM
not true! i work at citi and i'm guilty
muhahaha (i'll never tellll)
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 3:07PM
@76 - so what you are saying is that all banks are going to exchange one shitty MD for another shitty MD? They leave one place to go to another and so forth?
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 5:49PM
"By rushing to try to enact the 90% tax on bonus law, which is by far the most inane piece of legislation among all that have been enacted so far in response to the financial meltdown, Congress has inadvertently decided the winners vs. losers in the financial industry."
http://uncommonequity.com/
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 6:26PM
@53
FCOL -- yeah...maybe someone could make a movie about it...it could be called Wall Street, Part Deux!
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 9:04PM
Nick Calio, Citi's main lobbyist, was Bush's buttboy and is now giving the taxpayers a good deep dicking.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 9:06PM
Nick Calio, Citi's main lobbyist, was Bush's buttboy and is now giving the taxpayers a good deep dicking.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 10:09PM
@85
"...Congress has inadvertently decided the winners vs. losers in the financial industry."
Actually, the market decided that awhile ago. Congress is just taking the dead off of life support.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 10:17PM
Anal_yst@#77
Your old nemesis t_maker here. I too salute you. In 5 years you will probably be employing Vikram to wash your fleet of Ferraris. Good luck and keep kicking ass.
Posted by guest , Mar 21, 2009 10:58PM
A retroactive tax/change in law should be something any & every American be appalled of.
Whether the bonuses are justified or not -- this bill is not specific to AIG; and the bonus is paid to the AIG employees fixing/unwinding the bad trades, not the ones who made them -- a retroactive tax is dangerous and wrong.
The automakers received government funds, and it's the high demands of the unions which caused their downfall. Should the government retroactively remove union benefits & tax back last year's compensation?
Posted by guest , Mar 22, 2009 1:23AM
I snorted beer out of my nose when I read Pandit's line "experts in Washington".
The most important assets that the US has are rule of law and transparency. I think of it that way, as I'm a lawyer. To translate into i-banker speak, zero political risk and solid financial disclosure.
We have done very well based on just that. I highly recommend De Soto's book, "The Mystery of Capital" if you disagree. We are on the brink of throwing it all in the toilet, though.
It will be a very very bad thing if the feds abrogate these "legally binding" contracts. Legally binding used to be a phrase that, at least in the US, you didn't put quotes around because it meant what it said.
I'm pissed at a lot of folks, including AIG,but abrogating contracts basically cuts our society off at the legs.
BTW, the promise of social security has less legal dignity or standing than contracts, per US Supreme Court decision. Not to mention promises of tax treatment down the road on Roth IRAs or Traditional IRAs. Or anything else. Think about that.
If they abrogate these contracts, you are much better off spending your money on canned foods and guns then supposedly-tax-advantaged investments that depend on rules that can change on a whim. See, e.g., FDR criminalizing the private ownership of gold in the '30s.
And canned food is impervious to inflation (but watch the botulism).
We have elected a president who has never managed anything larger than a campaign staff and who, apparently, still thinks he's campaigning as opposed to governing (filling out NCAA brackets, appearing on Leno, signing a children's book deal, etc. ad infinitum et nauseum). Because he's been so busy cracking jokes about disabled folks with Leno, he hasn't gotten around to even NOMINATING any of the 15 or so Presidential appointments to round out Treasury. No wonder Geithner looks like he is, and is, struggling - he's supposed to have 15 presidential appointments beneath him, but Obama is prepping for potential questions on the "Jay Walking" session of the Leno show.
To sum up, (1), Obama is the best male Tracy Flick in the world, hands down, (2) unfortunately, Obama is also the actual president of the US with real power, whereas Tracy Flick was just a movie character, and (3) if Congress doesn't sober up quick, things will get real bad real quick.
I feel like a loon for thinking this way, but, we appear to be on a very bad track. And the gift we were given, the gift that was the USA, was not accidental or given. It was earned and fought for.
So, I'm hitting CostCo to buy a bunch of non-perishable food, calling my Congress-Critters and paying my taxes on April 15. Unlike a lot of the folks PASSING those taxes (google "Geithner taxes" or "Rangel rent control"). Then I'm going to the Richmond, Va. Tea Party. After cutting a check to Tim Geithner. Who signed an oath to the IMF to get a check to cover his taxes. Who then cashed the check. Who then never paid his taxes. Who now runs the IRS.
Posted by guest , Mar 22, 2009 12:21PM
@92
You make no sense.
First, let us look at the abrogation of "these 'legally binding' contracts." Here, the Federal Government is not abrogating said contracts; rather, they are in the process of instituting a tax on TARP bonuses for public policy reasons. In actuality, the Federal Government could abrogate the original contracts since the ramification of paying said contracts extends beyond the two original signatories. It is a credit to the Federal Government that they are not abrogating the original contracts considering that:
1.) Employees at TARP-taking institutions breached their contracts with their employers through negligence.
2.) Directors at TARP-taking institutions breached their fiduciary duty to shareholders.
3.) Loan recipients breached their mortgage agreements.
So, yes, contracts are sacred and inviolable when it is time for you to get paid, but, at all other times, who cares, right?
Finally, I find it hilarious that you are going to a Richmond, Va. Tea Party in order to support bonus payments made to British Citizens by AIG using U.S. taxpayer money. Don't you see, AIG is the modern day equivalent of the British East India Company. If the Founding Fathers were alive, they would smack you upside the head.
Posted by guest , Mar 22, 2009 8:37PM
@93
I am not @92 but you make no sense.
Taxing 90% is equivalent to abrogating contract.
AIG, by contracts, paid Goldman and other banks 100+ billion dollars in CDS and other claims. By the same analogy, do you think Congress should pass laws to tax those money too ? After all, the bonus money is less than 0.1% of the total AIG bail out amount.
Another thing is, the true criminals in AIGFP have long left the firm. Those who are working there now are trying to unwind the positions created by the crooks before them. I do not see punishing these people makes any sense. Congress should really go after Stan O'neal / Chuck Prince / Whoever is the former head of AIGFP, etc. Those are the people who took hundreds millions of dollars and ran, after bringing these institutions down to the knees.
Posted by guest , Mar 22, 2009 10:12PM
Vikram Pandit: "We removed the people responsible for Citi's financial distress"
Really, Vikram, so I guess those shit sandwiches on your balance sheet and off your balance sheet have nothing to do with "Citi's financial distress"... Please stop insulting our intelligence.
To top it off, this idiot actually has the gall to insinuate that the real thieves didn't leave about a year or so ago with bonuses large enough to ensure that they never have to work again.
Posted by guest , Mar 23, 2009 4:28AM
@ 95 - last time I checked Shit sandwiches on a balance sheet and off balance sheet are not people. So what does your second paragraph have to do with the statement in paragraph 1?
You're right @ Citi many of the people that left after running things into the ground, got millions in the process. How is punishing the average employee still there any kind of justice? Are any of the people who gave out those packages still there? Maybe we should be looking at individuals rather than slamming everyone indiscriminately.
Posted by guest , Mar 27, 2009 6:55AM
30,
You know, I bet there were men who thought they were so important that the world could not continue to exist without them 300 years ago. I wonder where those guys are now?
Posted by Jake of Citi , Mar 27, 2009 10:18AM
This monkey ass Indian is the worst. He really did earn the label " Pandit the bandit". It's a damn shame that Citibank has sunk to such a low that they have an Indian as a savior.He stand to gain a lot finanically. Citi has no way but up & if he stays, he will calim credit for all the gains.
Posted by guest , May 21, 2009 9:48PM
CitiFinancial, under Citigroup, can go to hell. They are operating under their own rules and practicing predatory lending to the hilt. I know this first hand unfortunately. I know they are all for government programs when it benefits THEM but turn a deaf ear when it comes to utilizing their bailout funds to assist their customers who very much need the help, like us! Our mortgage is almost 60% of our income, is at 12.78% interest, we have had verifiable loss of income of $9500/yr, and I have had TWO major back surgeries in the past 7 months. Somehow, Citifinancial has concluded that we are not in a hardship and won't budge on the interest rate for a loan mod and refinancing has been a dead end as our credit is tanking more each day as we are strapped financially. Congrats to anyone that has accomplished getting Citi to treat them fairly. We, however, are very much screwed.
Posted by guest , Jun 21, 2009 8:06AM
Taft money can not be used to hire foreginers....in fact lets check Pandit to determine if as CITI CEO he is actually a US a citizen.
As the economic collapse worsened last year - with huge numbers of bank employees laid off - the numbers of visas sought by the dozen banks in AP's analysis increased by nearly one-third, from 3,258 in the 2007 budget year to 4,163 in fiscal 2008. Too many US banks sought foreigners banks like Citi, JPMorgan Chase are all guilty.
To get the country back we need US Citizens to bring it back not foreigner,foreigners should stay at there own county and go back.
Posted by guest , Jun 21, 2009 1:33PM
@100 you're a moron, you know that, right? cool.