What he actually wrote was that they should "get over it," though obviously the columnist went through a few drafts of the message that included "lick my balls" until his editor deemed the last "fit to print." Anyway, yes, JoeNo has heard there are a bunch of people running around the city demanding the SEC give them the money they lost to Bernie Madoff in order to pay for things like food, shelter, a mentally disabled brother, and children with Leukemia. And what he has to say to them is the same thing Joe told Ackman after his TGT tragedy-- get over it, Nancy Boys.
...as I've argued before, the S.E.C.'s negligence notwithstanding, shouldn't the Madoff victims have to bear at least some responsibility for their own gullibility? Mr. Madoff's supposed results -- those steady, positive returns quarter after blessed quarter -- is a classic example of the old saw, "when something looks too good to be true, it probably is." What's more, most of the people investing with Mr. Madoff thought they had gotten in on something really special; there was a certain smugness that came with thinking they had a special, secret deal not available to everyone else. Of course, it turned they were right -- they did have a special deal. It just wasn't what they expected.
Outside the courthouse today, television reporters interviewed victims, all eager to tell their tales of woe. And their stories, in many cases, truly are heart-wrenching. Hopes and dreams have evaporated. Homes have been lost. Retirees are having to take minimum-wage jobs. Their anger at Mr. Madoff is understandable, to say the least. But to see them lash out at Irving Picard, the bankruptcy trustee, made me realize that too many of them still seem to think that someone should have to make them whole. The whole point about Ponzi schemes is that there is not enough money to make anybody whole -- they were robbed, pure and simple, and the government is not in the business of reimbursing for robberies. Not even when the cops stumble across the robbers and then mistakenly let them go.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:32PM
you're not my real father!
-bill ackman
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:34PM
These Madoff investors need to move on & quit living in the past. We get it, you lost your money.. now get a job.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:36PM
To review, Phil Gramm says we've turned into a nation of whinners, liberal media jumps all over him for lack of empathy, blah, blah, blah.
Liberal media columnist tells Ponzi scheme victims to get over and we get the sound of one hand clapping.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:36PM
@2 how about the ones that are in their 80s? you gonna hire them?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:45PM
Every night you come into my room
And pin me down with your strong arms
You pin me down, and I try to fight you
You come inside me
You fill me up
And I become the Night Man...
It's just 2 men sharing the night
It might seem wrong but it's just right
It's just 2 men sharing each other
It's just 2 men like loving brothers
One on top and one on bottom
One inside and one is out
One is screaming, he's so happy
The other's screamin' a passionate shout
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:46PM
These investors were all qualified individual investors (QIDs) right?
Isn't there protection / lack of spelled out under the law?
Posted by merkin capital partners , Jun 30, 2009 12:53PM
Kramer: It’s a write off for them.
Jerry: How is it a write off?
Kramer: They just write it off.
Jerry: Write it off what?
Kramer: Jerry, all these big (investors), they write off everything.
Jerry: You don’t even know what a write off is.
Kramer: Do you?
Jerry: No. I Don’t.
Kramer: But they do... And they’re the ones writing it off.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:54PM
I hate to agree in any way with Joe Nocera, but in a way he's right. Just common sense says don't put all your eggs in one basket, and so many of these people had "all their life savings" with ONE PERSON.
Even if Bernie was on the up-and-up, that whole "key man" risk of he-could-get-hit-by-a-bus-tomorrow is still there.
And yes, I do think they want to be "made whole". So they're down what will end up being 85%. Hey - I lost 35% last year legitimately in my IRA - can I get made whole too?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:55PM
@4 unfortunately it took them 80 plus years to learn something I learned in kindergarten. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. At that age you should be preserving your wealth, not reaching for 15% annual returns.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 12:58PM
The made whole argument reminds me of the argument ethnic groups make when drawing nation boundaries. It is not good enough they have a nation. No, every ethnic group wants boundaries that extend to the farthest point their warring ancestors once conqured.
Look, Victims, take a page from Macedonia and be glad you get anything.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 1:01PM
does ANYONE have first year Madoff client numbers?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 1:04PM
Joe No. Bitch slappin the dopes and dope slappin the bitches.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 1:07PM
"Mint says missing gold may have been stolen"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/06/29/ottawa-mint-gold-missing.html?ref=rss
Is Gold Missing From The Vaults?
http://www.businessinsider.com/is-gold-missing-from-the-vaults-2009-6#comment-4a4a453514b9b907000e18e7
Posted by Suits , Jun 30, 2009 1:11PM
I knew one of the investors and he was f'n smug about it. We managed some of this money and everytime something didn't go as planned (ie, down month) he'd said "I got this guy in NY, just churns it out no problem. Why can't you do that?" Gave us a ton of shit for it. I'm not happy he lost his money, but perhaps the entire industry needs to do a better job managing client expectations, so people know what's legit and what's not.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 1:14PM
The guy was running billions of dollars and had as accountant a one-man shop on top of a diner in Rockland County. Red flag, anyone?
Posted by american bandersnatch , Jun 30, 2009 1:22PM
@14 - There were a number of people who thought he was giving them the benefit of front running on the info from Madoff Securities. For those greedy bastards, I'm glad they lost their money.
Posted by Anal_yst , Jun 30, 2009 1:24PM
Madoff Investors fit into (at least one) of several categories, in no particular order:
1. Greedy
2. Lazy
3. Ignorant
4. Criminal
I find it fascinating, although hardly surprising, that some of the people are so quick to swallow their pride...
Posted by Perkins Maxwell , Jun 30, 2009 1:26PM
Common sense from the NYT! Read some of the comments to their article--hilarious. And depressing.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 1:35PM
Right on, @14! We came across so many European funds of funds that said stuff like, "We have managers that put up steady 15% returns with 2% volatility...etc.", and in retrospect, they were just investors with Madoff. They're either singing a different tune these days or are out of business.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:02PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:02PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:02PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:04PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:05PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:07PM
Didn't the IRS create a deduction for the losses? Of course, in clasic US government fashion, that only helps the ones who need the help the least - the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss. The 80 year old grandma will have to suck it up. Maybe it'll trickle down to her...
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:08PM
@20 - 25
WTF?! Post once. Leave it alone.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:22PM
Does anyone know if the IRS created a deduction for the losses? Of course, it wouldn't shock me if, in clasic US government fashion, that would only help those who need it the least, i.e., the victims who have enough income to deduct the loss.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:24PM
@26 - I think @20-25 was trying to demonstrate trickle down posting.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:35PM
@14 & 19- I understand what you are saying and to the extent that they were snobby or greedy investors thinking they one-up'd all us "idiots", Yes they certinly have egg on their face.
This doesnt excuse Madoff as a cock sucking theif, or his family. Who lied and manipulated thousands of people, while spendin their money his boats and homes. It also doesnt excuse the SEC from being the most pathetic group of losers in the history of our financial system.
I am not sure what the greed of "some" of these investors has to do with the overall situation. Or why these people should stop whining.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:42PM
Would somebody answer the goddamn question?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:44PM
29 They should stop whining, because the rule is buyer beware. These are private investment pools. Its not up to the SEC to provide 100% backstop nor is it the obligation of taxpayers to make them whole. They would like that - poof, problem solved - but thats not how life works. If and when they are truly starving, there are programs to deal with that. Otherwise, good luck with whatever the bankruptcy court recovers for you.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:45PM
I can still hear my father: Son, leave it alone. Put that down. Don't touch that. Leave it alone. I said don't touch that. Leave it alone.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:45PM
29 For every investor that lost money, there's another that benefitted from ill gotten gains. Go after them I say.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:53PM
@30 - the answer is "Pierre, South Dakota."
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 2:59PM
Many of the unsophisticated investors put their money with Madoff while he was serving as Chairman of NASDAQ and/or on the NASD's Board of Governors (to which the SEC had delegated regulatory oversight of all broker-dealers). I think they can be forgiven for imagining that the SEC would have made sure that these positions weren't being held by the biggest Ponzi schemer in history.
Frankly, I think even most very sophisticated investors (including those who never put a penny with Madoff) were pretty startled to learn that the SEC had started receiving detailed roadmaps from Harry Markopolous many, many years ago, spelling out in excruciating detail how it was impossible for Madoff to be producing the returns he claimed via the methods he claimed, and had just flat-out ignored these exceptionally credible and detailed warnings.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:05PM
35 I doubt that they imagined that the SEC was making sure that their positions were safe. More likely they viewed the Chairman posts simply as sterling character references. Doesn't matter though. You go off the reservation in search of returns, be prepared to pay the consequences.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:06PM
Well, I for one would appreciate it if Nocera would stop squatting out such populist bullcrap.
I have to actually get to, you know, work, so I'll have to wait until this evening to take the full run of shadenfreudesque nonsense and jam each and every particle of the same up the appropriate rear ends.
I'm the guy over at the Times site who has shredded Nocera and revealed the stupidity, the lying, the hypocrisy, the willful ignorance of basic facts from the situation and the pitchfork baiting Nocera has done to his eternal discredit.
Noticing the best arguments folks seem to have to my arguments is to pretend that they don't exist.
Delightful, that with Step 1 of this process completed, we get to indulge in an entirely new round of know-it-all-ism, eat the rich, paint any and all with a broad, darkly tarred brush, throw rocks at the victims hate-fest.
I'll be seeing you all. Hope some of the humans will have showed up by that time.
Posted by american bandersnatch , Jun 30, 2009 3:13PM
@17 - You might want to increase the dosage on your meds.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:13PM
@37 Dude, you should start your own blog. Seriously. Call it "Shredded Nocera."
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:28PM
I wonder how many of the victims are republicans who complain about "big government" to anyone who will listen?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:36PM
@40.....let's see, lots of Madoff investors lived in the Northeast, are Jewish and well educated - I think the Republican total of the bunch is a factor approaching zero.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 3:44PM
41 Actually, go to a seriously pro-Israel event (AIPAC meeting, for example) and you'll find a lot of Jewish Repubs. Ditto among the Hassids, who act more like Mormons than Jews.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 4:00PM
WHO IS JOHN GALT?
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 4:00PM
@5 - things you can't unread
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 4:54PM
@3 - To be fair, Gramm made those comments when the entire financial system was literally blowing up around us. I believe Lehman had just went down, or was just about to. ML and AIG looked like they would be following suit shortly. And GS and MS were hanging on by threads. I'm no fan of bailouts, but there would have disastrous consequences if the government let all those financial institutions go down at the same time. Gramm's comments demonstrated a scary lack of economic awareness coming out of a presidential candidate's camp. That was what drew the most ire.
By comparison, Madoff's victims are a very small percentage of the population. They're guilty of the same stupidty/greed the banks are. But the finacial failures/difficulties of Madoff's victims won't have nearly the same impact on society at large as simultaneous major bank failures would have. Not saying that is ideal, but that's the reality.
Posted by guest , Jun 30, 2009 8:57PM
That fat useless fuck should be out investigating Madoff's family, not disparaging the people who were foolishly parted from their savings.