Regular Dealbreaker readers know that we spend a lot of time around these parts having the CFA v. MBA debate (well, not me, but some of you, amongst yourselves, in the comments, losing your shit). Today brings a point in favor of the b-school track, courtesy of Wharton. Apparently a bit of disagreement has been brewing between a group of students and the administration, re: whether or not the future business leaders of the world should be allowed to skip class in order to go on a ski trip to Park City. The administration says no, they shouldn’t, because it reflects disrespect for academic commitments, is discouraging to the faculty, creates a divide among the students going Wharton brand if this sort of thing go out to a) the rest of the Penn campus and b) the outside world in general. Obviously, the students wanting so badly to go on this trip saw things a bit differently and a dialogue ensued. For those of you who, after reading the full back and forth after the jump, would challenge the assertion that this case reflects a point for the MBA track rather than the CFA, I would ask you to show me the CFA program where you’re afforded the opportunity and downtime to say and draft stuff like:
* “The trip in no way takes away from Wharton’s rigorous analytical MBA program”
* “I honestly can’t think of a more rigorous or more analytical MBA program than Wharton’s.”
* “I am told that seasoned Wharton professors typically earn $250K or more per year. It would be nice if anyone in the administration held professors accountable for teaching quality.”
* “How can it be hard to defend the Wharton brand on the Penn campus when the Wharton brand is far more prestigious? Penn should be defending itself to us!”
From:[redacted Wharton student]
To: Jain, Anjani
Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 8:39:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Whg10] Welcome back (and more)
Dear Anjani,
Welcome back as well. I hope you had an enjoyable break and a happy holiday season. I spent two weeks in India – it was my first time there and it was a terrific experience. A year and a half has blown by and I now find myself a little nostalgic as I enter my final semester at Wharton. I find it somewhat disheartening that your welcome back e-mail was, well, hardly welcoming at all.
I suspect that the activity vaguely referenced in your e-mail is the upcoming ski trip to Park City, Utah. I should mention that I am not attending this trip, a decision that may have worked out well, if only because the West has had a rather poor snowfall this year (something I could never have predicted). So, yes, you will find me in class on Thursday, but I can’t promise that I won’t be daydreaming of knee-deep champagne powder.
In your e-mail, you stated that you wish to begin a dialogue with students. I claim absolutely no leadership or any other authority within the class of ’10, so I am surely not the person you had in mind. But, you clearly feel that this is a very significant issue, so I believe it is important that you receive a response from students. I sincerely hope your e-mail has not been met with silence – and I sincerely hope mine won’t be, either.
At the end of your e-mail, you state that students who attend the trip will receive an unexcused absence. I believe that this is exactly the outcome everyone would or should have predicted – both those attending the trip and those not. But, prior to your conclusion, you raise a number of points (nine by my tally). It is to these points that I feel a response is necessary. In the following e-mail, I will attempt to respond as best as I can to what I consider to be the most salient issues.
POINTS ONE AND TWO:
1. That this reflects disrespect for your academic commitments and is very discouraging to faculty is, we hope, self-evident.
2. It may be less self-evident that the decision to take part in this activity is also a negative signal to your fellow students who choose to honor their academic commitments.
MY RESPONSE:
How does missing one class reflect disrespect for academic commitments? Many classes are not discussion based, and even in those that are, typically only a handful of students speak. And it would seem to me that students who miss just 80 minutes out of an entire semester can easily make it up by doing the reading, having discussions with team-members and/or reading lecture notes. I have no idea if it is discouraging to faculty, though the claim would seem to lack credibility, as faculty members are evaluated solely on research productivity. This is, if anything, discouraging to us students. It would be nice if anyone in the administration held professors accountable for teaching quality. I am told that seasoned Wharton professors typically earn $250K or more per year. Professors in virtually every other academic discipline earn far less. When a professor accepts a job and the accompanying generous salary at a business school such as Wharton, he has implicitly accepted his role within a professional (i.e. career) -oriented school. This should alleviate any discouragement he might have.
As to your second point, I disagree with the notion that the trip, in any way, sends a negative signal to fellow students. Few, if any, will care about other students’ decision to attend class for two reasons: (1) fellow students’ absences in no way interfere with others’ ability to learn and/or earn high marks; (2) those that are in class stand to benefit from proportionally better grades because everything, including participation, is graded on a curve. Those who are not attending class, will, in your words, receive an unexcused absence. I would assume that the students who are in class on Thursday are those either with no employment prospects, such as yours truly, or those who care most about grades. Therefore, there is likely a significant group of students attending class on Thursday who might actually be happy about their colleagues’ absences (personally I’m indifferent).
POINT THREE:
1. Such activities have the potential to create cleavages within our community even although they appear to be community sanctioned.
MY RESPONSE:
Cleavage jokes aside, I surmise that most Wharton MBAs do not have strong negative feelings about Thursday’s absences – provided any/all group work commitments are met.
.
POINT FOUR:
1. We are also concerned about potential harm to the Wharton brand–both externally and on the Penn campus.
MY RESPONSE:
Really? I am not sure how many people outside of Wharton are aware of the ski trip. I suspect few, if any. But, even if news of the trip were to be leaked to The Wall Street Journal, I do not think it would do substantial damage to the brand. The trip in no way takes away from Wharton’s rigorous analytical MBA program. As the world continues to globalize, only intellectual capital-based pursuits will be financially rewarded (and not easily outsourced to a lower cost country). Thus, deep analytical capabilities are of paramount importance to newly minted MBAs. I honestly can’t think of a more rigorous or more analytical MBA program than Wharton’s. Of course, it’s not to say that we should be so arrogant as to rest on our laurels. I’m sure Wharton can do better in certain ways; I just don’t think that this particular ski trip has the potential to do as much damage as other issues facing the program.
And, yes, I would sincerely hope that you can defend the Wharton brand. It is, after all, one of the top business schools in the U.S. and the world. And how can it be hard to defend the Wharton brand on the Penn campus when the Wharton brand is far more prestigious? Penn should be defending itself to us!
POINT FIVE:
1. It makes it exceedingly difficult to defend why our students place social activities over academic activities and undermines our reputation for rigor and commitment to academic excellence
MY RESPONSE:
So, are we to infer that you do defend students placing social activities over academic activities, albeit only for certain activities? If so, how are we supposed to know which are ok and which are not?
POINT SIX:
1. We believe that the values and norms of the institution gently inculcate a common understanding of the primacy of the academic mission and lead to enlightened self-regulation by the organizing groups. These values and norms have produced a culture conducive to learning both in and out of the classroom.
MY RESPONSE:
My apologies, but I’m not entirely sure what this means.
________________________________
From: “Jain, Anjani”
To: whg10
Cc: Dean Tom Robertson
Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 10:40:30 PM
Subject: [Whg10] Welcome back (and more)
Dear students,
Welcome back to campus for the Spring semester.
This is an admittedly awkward welcome back message, for we are writing to let you know that we were dismayed to learn about a student-organized activity that is likely to take a large number of your peers away from classes on Thursday. That this reflects disrespect for your academic commitments and is very discouraging to faculty is, we hope, self-evident. It may be less self-evident that the decision to take part in this activity is also a negative signal to your fellow students who choose to honor their academic commitments. Such activities have the potential to create cleavages within our community even although they appear to be community sanctioned.
We are also concerned about potential harm to the Wharton brand–both externally and on the Penn campus. It makes it exceedingly difficult to defend why our students place social activities over academic activities and undermines our reputation for rigor and commitment to academic excellence.
As an institution we empower our students to undertake a wide variety of co-curricular pursuits because we view them to be an important part of your professional development. We also strive not to be heavy-handed about imposing strict boundaries on these activities. We believe that the values and norms of the institution gently inculcate a common understanding of the primacy of the academic mission and lead to enlightened self-regulation by the organizing groups. These values and norms have produced a culture conducive to learning both in and out of the classroom. Activities such as this planned event for the coming weekend are detrimental to our culture. We hope that you will contemplate this when making your individual decisions. We are informing your faculty of this activity and suggesting to them that they should regard any absences it causes to be unexcused. We have also begun a dialog with the relevant student leaders to discuss solutions and to find ways of preventing future occurrences of conflict with the academic calendar.
Sincerely,
Anjani Jain
Peggy Bishop Lane
B. Kembrel Jones
Graduate Division
mmmmmmmm douchebags
CFA > MBA, especially from Wharton
Fantastic.
Ha. Wharton is home to the biggest douchebags attending b-schools.
Ski trip > MBA
@2 keep fucking that chicken.
Keep stirring that pot, you saucy little minx! Oh, yeah, and what @6 said,keep fuckin' that chicken.
@5 I'll see you on the slopes.
Nerdiest business schools:
1. Stern
2. Wharton
3. Sloan
what are 1st year numbers for Fordham MBAs??
DB is reaching today. Is there really nothing going on?
-Stern Grad
Suck on my big, fat, juicy, FUQUA!
@10 Minimum wage and after one year of "service" a week of vacation (unpaid)
Park City?!! C'mon! If you're skiing/riding Utah you've better options. Snowbird gets twice the snowfall, for one. Ski trip planning FAIL.
park city
They're all whiny douchebags. Both the faculty and the students.
Anyone who's been to Wharton knows that opportunities to create cleavages are few and far between and therefore should be embraced whenever they present themselves.
@16 being in Philly will do that for you.
Wharton, be nice to the future masters of the universe
Much as I LOVE Bess, this is way too much ad about nothing. At the same time, it is heartening to see that the next round of biz leaders are going to be the same humorless pricks as the current crop …
@14: Ever heard of the Sundance Film Festival, smart guy?
"As the world continues to globalize, only intellectual capital-based pursuits will be financially rewarded (and not easily outsourced to a lower cost country). Thus, deep analytical capabilities are of paramount importance to newly minted MBAs"
Can someone explain why these sentences are relevant to the intent/thesis of the email?
Sythesis skills fail.
Too long, shouldn't have read.
the responder can go cry me a river. He isn't going skiing, so he should STFU.
Thanks to @6 for reviving "keep fucking that chicken!"
@20, damn it I knew I'd forget something–that b-schoolers just want to go somewhere and get shitfaced and party. PC does nicely, I suppose. Still, the skiing ain't great.
-14
Park City refers to any resort in the area… The Canyons/Snowbird/Alta – gnar fresh pow pow everywhere
Park City = lousy skiing, piss-poor beer. I question the judgment and the intellect of these pussies.
Park City is for closers.
Raymundo James
for those who have not been to b-school: it is remarkable the number of tools you will encounter. you have a hard time imagining these people ever had real jobs. Anyone from Columbia MBA class of '05 knows this well.
@14/23- Don't concede. You're right, Snowbird is a thousand times better than Park City, but Park City has a little more prestige and recognition.
@24- False. Park City is a town and a resort in the town. That's it.
The best powder is always found on the tits of a stripper at Rick's Cabaret.
Lil' Kudlow
Terrible snow this past weekend at Park City and Deer Valley.
I'm a Wharton now and love it. The people are great (brilliant and fun), and the curriculum is insanely rigorous. Do you have to derive/solve Jensen's inequality at HBS? Yeah, right. What would Anjani rather have: a school like Wharton with a reputation for laid-back students who aren't 100% douchebags, or a school like Harvard where class participation is half your grade but where 50% of the class has to pull down their pants to count to 21?
I ski down Everest every year, just because I can.
Lloyd
@28, thanks for the backup. Was beginning to think that no one took ski trips to actually ride anymore.
-14/23/putting off work
Amen, 29, amen.
Guy with CFA, restraining devices and Tony Montano stash of blow at his Santa Monica office.
IF ONLY CFA WOULD HAVE GONE TO WHARTON, THEY WOULD KNOW THAT GOING TO PARTIES IS PART OF THE REQUISITE. ONE GAINS FAR MORE FROM PARITIES THAN ANYTHING THE CFA EXAM CAN TEACH THEM, ERR SCHWEISER NOTES. ALAS, CFA IS STUDYING TO SIT ON A DESK & STARE AT GREEN NUMBERS WHILE TRYING TO GAIN INSIDER INFORMATION FOR THEIR D-BAG HEDGE FUNDS. AT LEAST AT WHARTON, THEY'LL HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE & THE ROLLEDEX TO BECOME BILLIONARES.
@32: send resume to BAC.
They should just hope that a Temple law student doesn't get them before graduation.
MBA = Vacation
- $120K tuition gone,
- 2 years of no salary (4-600K?) gone,
- 2 setback in career (bec you maybe get the same job you did before, Maybe.
- Learn nothing new (or that CFA can't teach you)
If I'm gonna take a 2 year, 5-720K vacation, it better be better than getting an MBA…
I just hired a recent MBA grad as my junior analyst. If I left for school today, in 2 years he'd be making the decision to hire me as his junior analyst.
HI I AM INTERNATIONAL STUDENT AT WHARTON. I TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND MY ENGRISH NOT SO GOOD ALWAYS, BUT I SO SMART AND I MAKE UP FOR IT WITH MY ROLODEX WHILE YOU STARE AT GREEN NUMBERS, BECAUSE PEEPUL WITH THA CFA THEY USE APPLE IIE COMPUTER AND MBA THEY BUY ROLODEX WITH THEY BILLIONS.
Ping@40, go shove a marker up yo ass.
Lil' Kudlow
I thought b-school was a ski trip.
-Rick James
@32 Why would you need to know how to count at HBS? When they can simply delegate the task to a Wharton grad at the end of the day…just sayin'
@ 28 – snowbasin is also good and powder mountain has a ton of terrain w/o all of the skiiers in the way
I can't believe I read all that…I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself.
-Guy with the douche chills
@6 keep balancing those debits and credits. tool.
wow that student really needs a beating. I think that response does way more to hurt the rep of the school then any ski trip…what a sniveling prick! He sounds like the Indian version of Alex P Keaton..
@39 – Didn't you post that exact same comment in another MBA vs. CFA rant? It was mildly amusing then, it sucks now. Go away.
Well, @43, unfair but true. And then the Wharton MBA delegates to the army of CFAs working under him.
Warton is a friend of mine.
"As the world continues to globalize, only intellectual capital-based pursuits will be financially rewarded (and not easily outsourced to a lower cost country)."
WOW!
Wow! I just blew my mind.
Seriously. I'm serious.
Alta>The Canyons>>> Park City = Deer Valley. There.
Those Wharton pusses should go to the Poconos and share the slopes with the CFAs.
@46 – you know of the existence of debits and credits? examine your motives promptly, back office jockey…
So did Anjani respond to this punk/punkette or did she stand there and take it?
@14/23, 28, 44 Les Houches? maybe Crans-Montana?
Ivy Leagers spend too much time writing the response to the dean….the correct response should have been "I have my internship and you have your $60k for the yearly tuition….go eff yourself, I am going skiing."
"By the way," I ski all-a-da expert trails, ya know. Da real ones with dose two black diamonds. You can watch me tear it up on da slopes. I'm easy to recognize.
I'm da guy wearin' da black leather jacket, with da words "The Thug" written on da back.
- The Thug
….I do cocaine …..kakakakakyYEAAAH!
-Rockso, the MBA Clown
there is NO DOUBT the responder is Indian and speaks up WAY to much in class
@volatility, anyone who creates a DB alter-ego screen name is most likely unemployed, which is probably the case with you. I'm sorry your aspirations to become a member of the 7 figures club did not materialize at Jefferies. Have fun crusing cnbc.com, youporn and db all day in your mom's basement.
@60 the first part of your statement is incorrect.
park city is worse than mount snow. crowded trails where no one knows how to ski/board and everyone takes pictures. Go to solitude or the bird.
Hmm. Well I'm in sell-side research so being right or wrong doesn't really matter in my daily life.
-60
need to work on my typing
park city
BSD's ski Sun Valley.
That is all-(.)(.)
@61
So you're the gangstar who wrote the email, eh?
–Employeed guy with DB sn who can't, unfortunately, get onto youpron at work.
OH SHIT OH SHIT! Take that you punk bitch @60!
And while you're at it…motives…examine them…
mmmm. snowballs.
Anal_yst, do you do gr*e*e*k?
By the way, my favorite ski resort is Hunter Mountain, ya know. My favorite trail dare is called da Belt Parkway. It winds around da mountain, and dares usually alota beginnas dare.
I love to come barrelin' down dat trail and crash into dem clowns. I try to see how many of 'em I can take out on each run.
Da ski patrol dare are all friends-a-mine, so dey let me do dat.
- The Thug
I'm sorry @60. @68 here. I don;t know what came over me.
-Bored guy/@68/small Thai hooker/Tax Chick
@57 Has it right.
Separate learning from paying for a product.
You are paying for the MBA. Period. End stop.
They are accepting remuneration for said educating. You have a contractual relationship.
Consider this example. You hire a hooker for a $1000. You pay, you expect service. If you give her/him extra to spend the night and you decide to sleep instead of fuk, well, it is your money. But the hooker better damn be there when you wake up or there is going to be an ass-beating. Why? Back to the simple contractual relationship. You pay, you play. You accept pay, you agree to play.
Now, if any of you fuks show up on the slopes the second week of February, I am going all Goldman on you.
Some things must have changed since I graduated from Wharton.Class attendance is recorded, seriously ? By whom the foreign TA subbing for the professor who is away consulting or busy getting shitfaced at the White Dog.
And another thing, dots are now skiing ? The world really is f'ed up.
@67, it's spelled gangster, not gangstar. and no, i would never go to park city. It's spelled, employed, not "employeed." I didn't know they had internet access for employees at roy rogers, things are looking up for you!
@70/76,
You win at douchebaggery. Hands Down. No Contest.
the students should be able to do what they want but they're tools for drafting such an incredibly dbaggy response.
"Now, if any of you fuks show up on the slopes the second week of February, I am going all Goldman on you."
@74: You mean you're going to get assfucked by AIG and then make someone else pay for your STD test?
@79 yeah man, we really made out badly from that whole AIG thing.
-LB
I didn't know Indians could ski.
Kudos to the potential skiers to get an Indian to draft a letter and take the hit from the administration.
And to Anjani's Point Six… I'm going to "gently inculcate" to YouPron later tonite.
@79 I am the original poster and that was flipping hilarious. Good show, chap.
@61 – unfortunately, my child, you must still be wearing diapers. Are you so premature in all that you do?
to your point, alas, I have to work to pay for the little indulgences in life worth living for.
try organizing some donation drives in your spare time (as you did not bother creating an alter ego thus realized energy and time savings that we would hate to see go to waste).
I just miss when they only lived east of 40th street.
@84 "They?!" I believe some motives need examining…
These pansies sound even worse than those losers from Stern '09. If you know Stern, you know who I mean.
@volatility, i get the sense you are one of these MBA, high self opinion academic types, probably got your job through family connections and you don't really do anything all day or add value, but your boss can't fire you because your family is a client of your firm. you are usually the guy who i completely rip off when we trade.
@85: Okay, I examined my motives and they're all clear! Thanks for the heads up!
@28, thanks for the backup. Was beginning to think that no one took ski trips to actually ride anymore.
-14/23/putting off work
…annnn….they!
……..annnnn….theyyyy?
Anjani for writing the email – Clown
The douche bag who responded – Clown
Idoits on this blog – Clowns with no life
Wharton guys and girls – Rockstars
All of us now at Park City – Even bigger rockstars
loser wharton student taking the time to comment on this from park city@91– clown with no life in Utah
damn i was ready to come in here saying CFA ain't worth dogshit but i was stunned by the excessive faggotrionics of said MBA emailer. I guess CFA is better than being violently gay …
@volatility, i get the sense you are one of these MBA, high self opinion academic types, probably got your job through family connections and you don’t really do anything all day or add value, but your boss can’t fire you because your family is a client of your firm. you are usually the guy who i completely rip off when we trade.
This email is the opinion of ONE student who does NOT represent the Wharton student body. It's sad when one misguided student can single-handedly create the impression that all Wharton students are dbags. Agreed that the response from this one guy was excessive and immature.
Comment removed by moderator.
@95: Thanks Anjani!
@95: Thanks Anjani!
What's Wharton?
@87/88 – whatever rocks your boat.
Vivid imagination though, if ever in trouble, you could write for The Tonight Show With Conan O'Brien.
Food for thought – what if I were a gayster who slept his way up? Way up? Still better human being than you, methinks.
And now, back to the studio! (bitchslap & homage to BJD)
PhD>MBA>CPA>FRM>CFA
@volatility = Barney Frank
@101 – nope… just provided an alternative fantasy to prop a rudimentary mind.
If only it were possible to LT email-writing.
@92 I am glad you have joined this forum loser – as most graduates of the University of Phoenix (online)and working in the mail room of a firm might find it challenging to actually post anything at all. Keep stamping that mail a55hole, i'll keep it real in Park City.
um, last time I checked, Penn was top 5 is USNews undergrad. Wharton is
@92 I am glad you have joined this forum loser – as most graduates of the University of Phoenix (online)and working in the mail room of a firm might find it challenging to actually post anything at all. Keep stamping that mail a55hole, i’ll keep it real in Park City.
@92 I am glad you have joined this forum loser – as most graduates of the University of Phoenix (online)and working in the mail room of a firm might find it challenging to actually post anything at all. Keep stamping that mail a55hole, i’ll keep it real in Park City.
Comment removed by moderator.
Why they couldn't have gone during one of the 4 preceding weeks of vacation is a question that begs asking. Want to ski? Good for you: go during winter or spring break. Or better yet, go after graduation during all that downtime you'll have looking for work as an investor in an economy on life support.
Why they couldn't have gone during one of the 4 preceding weeks of vacation is a question that begs asking. Want to ski? Good for you: go during winter or spring break.
Are there really THAT many people willing to piss away the opportunity to be at such a fine school? And if they are above it then why pay 40k per 12 week semester?
http://x
@95: Thanks Anjani!
http:://x@95: Thanks Anjani!
http:://x@95: Thanks Anjani!