Yesterday we discussed Bridgewater Associates’ “Principles,” the meanderings of founder Ray Dalio, which serves as the hedge fund’s unofficial handbook. While clients probably have no problem with it, not everyone counts themselves as fans of the Tao of Dal, which includes operating “like a hyena, attacking the wildebeest,” “probing” ones colleagues and having their meetings taped all in an effort to get to the “truth.” Today Ray got in touch with us to a) clear up some perceived misconceptions, re the T of D, b) respond to the characterizations of the of the firm made by a friend of BA and c) provide an up to date copy of “Principles” (yesterday’s PDF was a draft from last fall), which you can use yourself, should you be interested in starting your own little B-water (they also make great stocking stuffers).
Dalio’s Principles [BWater]
Ray – I’m not paying you 2 and 20 to spend your day writing a response to a financial blogger. Get back to work or cut your fees.
- Pissed off investor
@1 would’ve been a funnier joke if you knew that bwater charges 3 and 50.
Dalio is taking his time to respond to BL. My take-away: BL is the most powerful woman on wall street.
I totally dig. Truth and thetans, bro.
So sad our paths never crossed.
~The Ghost of L.Ron.Hubbard
Ray, here’s some truth. You and your entitled, bratty, spoiled brat son are both douche bags and if you didn’t have money (and having money does not equal being intelligent, noble or courageous) nobody would care about your stupid philosophy.
Would it be to truthful to say you are all trying to compensate for the fact that you all suffer from limp dick?
SAC
Where is the TLDR guy when you need him?
i couldnt help but sing bridge over troubled water while reading this
@3 – SECOND most powerful. Alexandra has more expensive art taste. Not necessarily more refined. She, too, has Stevie around her lillte, er, finger.
@5 roid rage
WTF, a “sermon on the mount” from this amoral pecker-head? The man needs serious help.
@5 – While Ray is probably pretty douchey, such cowardly anonymous vitriol reflects more on the sender than the target.
I guess you have a lot of time on your hands when you lose 60% of your assets under management in 3 years. Maybe Ray should be more focused on managing money than his philosophy on how to create a healthy working environment.
Wow, what a creative brainstorming process you have. I bet you’re the only firm to think of an idea, then have someone (maybe even 2 people!) critique said idea. How profound.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/opinion/22iht-edbeam.1.18868883.html
Selfish bastard
This guy is a pain in the Assness
@16 if you *had* to: asness or dalio?
@12 seconded
@5 is Jesse Jackson or another enforcer for the rainbow coalition, obviously racist and anti-establishment
@5 pretty sure that dalio isn’t under the impression anyone cares about his philosophy that doesn’t work for him, which is why only employees of bwater get this. and since he signs their paychecks, they literally are paid to give a shit what he thinks, just like at every other hf (SAC, etc).
I have a book of principles too, if anyone is interested…
-PJ
the ray-dy doth protest too much
I have to say that Ray dealt with this PR issue brilliantly.. all that was missing was an email address where you can send your resume.
Glad we cleared this up. How far will he go for a good milkshake?
@22 are you kidding? he comes off as even crazier.
Ray – Mark Cuban’s email is m_cubed@douche.net … I think you guys should hook up and port some alpha.
WHAT THE FUCK– I thought I was the only billionaire who corresponded with BL? Meet me at the Greenwich train station, Dalio. I will destroy you.
RayDizzle must have been more than a little hurt by all the Stalin/Mao/Hitler/Scientology/Opus Dei references in the last thread.
…I’m going to go with insane – what a self absorbed dickshine
If I had known Ray Dalio was going to be reading Dealbreaker I would’ve worn something nice.
Ray thank you for the update, but after reading your treatise, I must question everything you told me until proven truthful.
Bess are you flattered or annoyed by the request from Dalio? Is he worth your time?
Kouwe will start a “Call the Market Close Contest” at 3:32 today.
Funny that a guy who thinks his views are so normal keeps pointing them out as “radical.” Does that make you feel special Dalio?
@17, tough call – I like ‘em batshit crazy so lets go with RayRay
@32 I actually thing he will post his “Call the Market Close Contest” at 4:01 today…..
Ray Dalio’s anagram is “A Oil Yard”
- The Anagrammar
@12, no that post reflects the truth that Ray is so desperate to obtain. BTW he and his slaves (cult members, employees) love to insult people and tell them that they aren’t being nasty or mean or petty or jealous; they’re just being truthful and follow Ray’s teachings.
Typical B-Water BS… and tell us Ray, how many of your progeny have gone out and started their own funds after subscribing to such a great culture….?
His essay on the D-process in the CFA institute book was a more value than this stuff; interesting view for sure.
https://www.cfainstitute.org/learning/products/publications/rf/Pages/rf.v2009.n5.18.aspx
hideous letterhead.
@22 seconded. WHERE CAN I APPLY!?!?
@36
Radial Yo
Aid Royal
Daily Oar
Radio Lay
Load Airy
Ado Riyal
A Laird Yo
A Daily Or
A Diary Lo
A Dairy Lo
A Rad Oily
A Dray Oil
A Yard Oil
A Day Roil
A Ail Dory
A Riyal Do
A Airy Old
A Royal Id
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A Ray Lido
A Ray Idol
Ad Rail Yo
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Load Ray I
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Rad Ail Yo
Rad Ya Oil
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Day Ail Or
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Ail Ray Do
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Rail Ya Do
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La Ay Rod I
WAKE UP, PEOPLE. This is a ploy to get in BL’s pants.
Dalio to BL: Tonight, we’re going to play ‘hyena and wildebeest.’ I’m going to give you the worst two minutes of your life.
It was “Eagles and Lambs” when Nietzsche thought it up…
I interviewed there a few years back. I can vouch that the interview process there is extremely rigorous and confrontational. I sailed through the first few interviews which just tested your knowledge of the field. The next “interview” / debate was about a topic I selected from list of 10. This one that decided my fate. I took one side of the topic and the interviewers took the other side. They were looking for me to convince the other side and win them over. I went for a Fox News style debate, I dug into my position and did not give up an inch. Needless to say I did not make it further in the interview process.
They are looking for people who are:
1. Good at what they do, be it technology, trading, analysis, math or whatever
2. Extremely confrontational and looking to challenge the status quo.
3. Can express your ideas lucidly.
I interviewed there a few years back…oh, someone said that already.
Anal_yst,
What are you thoughts on this? You sound like the kind of guy that would like to interview at BW and then blog about the ensuing sh*tshow.
Do they have a wildebeest that can play piano?
Those who pride themselves on always telling the truth generally concentrate on truths more painful to others than to themselves.
Truths are likenesses of other truths. So those who concentrate on finding them discover there are fewer really distinct truths than they’d expected. Some conclude that there is only one. The truth is: many truths find you, though only a few can be found.
I’m hopping on the BW bandwagon. I always had a positive view of the place though never new much about it. I think I’d get along there. But who the fuck would leave socal for CT.
I wonder if everyone’s comp is transparently shared with everyone?
I’m not being vicious, you’re being vicious.
@HAM- same. I want to work at any HF that recognizes the power of the BL.
“Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a rock, a mighty fortress;
Often have I been to it,
Even to its highest tower,
From whence the world looks black.”
“Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a breath, a wind,
A shadow, a phantom;
Long have I pursued it,
But never have I touched
The hem of its garment.”
And I believed the second traveller;
For truth was to me
A breath, a wind,
A shadow, a phantom,
And never had I touched
The hem of its garment.
The wayfarer,
Perceiving the pathway to truth,
Was struck with astonishment.
It was thickly grown with weeds.
“Ha,” he said,
“I see that none has passed here
In a long time.”
Later he saw that each weed
Was a singular knife.
“Well,” he mumbled at last,
“Doubtless there are other roads.”
A more welcome, albeit short-lived, Christmastime tradition was the full-page ad that the Greenwich, Connecticut-based rich guy Ray Dalio took out in major newspapers decrying Yuletide commercialism. “No sooner does Thanksgiving end, than the loathsome shopping season begins – a monthlong compulsion to buy something, anything, for anyone,” read Dalio’s ad in last year’s Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune and other papers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/opinion/22iht-edbeam.1.18868883.html
It is by now proverbial that every proverb has its opposite. For every “Time is money” there is a “Stop and smell the roses”. When someone says “You never stand in the same river twice” someone else has already replied “There is nothing new under the sun”. In the mind’s arithmetic, 1 plus –1 equals 2. Truths are not quantities but scripts: Become for a moment the mind in which this is true.
Thus Spake Ray
People like Dalio is what the economy is in trouble.
Well argued @59. Your insight, command of the English language, and/or attention to detail show you have a bright future at a prestigious institution like the SEC.
Sounds like a utopia…kool aid line forms to the left.
@60 BW employee?
@62 pretty sure you don’t have to work at bwater to know 59 is an idiot.
-not 60
What’s the dilly yo, Dalio?
59 misspoke – what he meant was “people like Dalio are what the subprime is in trouble”
@65 is correct. Seriously people, please keep up.
I like that the defense of his sanity comes in the form of the willingness of people whom he pays to continue to stay with him. Is the WWII Nazi reference too easy here?
@60 show us your tits!
85 pages? How about Principles for Dummies–a 1 page cheatsheet with bullet points and size 12 font?
Jeez
@42 Like the ring of “A Royal Id”
I liked his response.
I’d consider working there if it wasn’t in the middle of CT.
is this guy a Scientology or at least a former follower of xenu?
My comment was referencing #57′s link, consumer spending is 70% of economy, Dalio being a grouch, old DB memes…yada yada.
Thanks for not getting it.
-59
@73 I got it, and I thought it was fabulous. Fuck 60/63, okay?
wordy
This guy is fucking insane. It’s just a matter of time before the family murder/suicide.
@59/73 Fair enough. It’s sometimes tough to tell if it’s a Yahooer or an Andy Kaufman kind of thing.
All this talk makes my dick itch.
Landmark Education much Ray???
I interviewed there a couple years ago. It’s def. cultish which wouldn’t be so bad if the people who worked there weren’t such pretentious douches. This one D-bag whose head was the size and shape of a small pumpkin basically sealed the deal for me despite me feeding him all the culture crap he wanted to hear. In most places people are people and they are generally nice, at B-water douche levels run allot higher though.
I used to work there a few months ago and got fired for finally not giving in to the stupid demands of my boss. I had to deliver to his desk every morning a football helmet full of cottage cheese and a hemorrhoid pillow soaked in preparation H.
This comment has been moderated.
He’s a legend … in his own mind.
Asness came out of the woodwork when provoked. Dalio did the same. Who’s next?
Why do you all seem to consider yourselves to be any better than Ray or those that support Bridgewater? Perhaps you’ve blinded yourselves while slandering others, but your insults and comments are nothing more than hypocritical attacks. You are all conforming to another CULTure, one them seems to thrive on taking stabs at people you simply do not know or understand. The largest problem I see here is that everyone on this thread (including myself at times) fears the truth. As sometimes truth is brutal, but once seen and understood, the value it holds is priceless.
Perhaps it would be useful if you all reflected on the things you wrote and realize, you are no better than anyone around you, and no one around you is better than you. We all have weaknesses and strengths and vary in countless ways, but the only way to succeed in anything is to be transparent, truthful to others and honest with yourself.
(From what I have read of the Principles, I believe Ray would agree, and also believe that people who do not… are probably afraid of truth…thus afraid of who they are/have become)
I have no problem with Asness, Dalio, etc.
But, I have a hard time seeing what they get out of publicly posting on sites like Dealbreaker.
@86 – ivy league undergrads and recent grads read this site in droves. how else is he going to populate westport with glorified research analysts if word gets out that it’s just a creepy cult with no exit ops?
@85
assuming you to be a complete douche…if not, I apologize for not being worthy of your sarcasm
Do you really believe Ray Dalio built his treefort in Weston, amidst 50 year old pines, a no-kill flyfishing only branch of the Aspetuck River, and countless twink infested McMansions, being honest with any of his LPs?
@87,
86 here. you’re kidding, right? are you saying this: BW has such a hard time attracting recruits that they’ve got their billionaire founder trolling a finance gossip blog.
ha.
@86, 87 “I have no problem with Asness, Dalio, etc.
But, I have a hard time seeing what they get out of publicly posting on sites like Dealbreaker.”
I realize people like to slander this site by claiming “oh it’s just a little gossip blog” or whatever but for whatever it is, it’s extremely widely read by Wall Street and not just among the 20-something set but from the bottom all the way to the top (I can’t be bothered to find the links but see the NYT, WSJ stories that mention Jamie Dimon, Ken Griffin, Steve Cohen et al all reading here). Dalio and Asness obviously get that, which is why they’ve responded to DB directly. They know ppl are getting the one side, they figure they might as well have themselves heard too.
@86/89,
Both are rich, insecure men with huge egos who have no conception of reality outside their little sycophant-filled bubbles. Hence the need to lash out. Capiche?
90 and 91 are both correct.
@84 please for the love of god let it be Ping. Or Jim Simons.
@90, 86/89 here.
Is calling a self-proclaimed “Wall Street Tabloid” a “finance gossip blog” slanderous?
I like Dealbreaker a lot. I’m just questioning why the Dalios/Asnesses out there think that it’s a good forum for themselves.
@94 it’s a good forum for them because everyone on WS is reading it, and the posts are widely circulated. so, since these ppl are getting the DB side anyway, the Dalios and Asnesses figure they should get their side in too. obviously the way Dalio went about it was vastly preferable to Asness’s caged circus freak routine?
I for one would like to thank Ray for sharing his Principles. It would have been a best-seller had he published it as a book.
As a Bridgewater grad, all I can say is: Jesus. I wish I could say this is an outlier, but I’d be lying. Dalio-ites are, more often than not, giant weirdos.
Maybe no one revolts because they are stuck in the woods without exit options and 2+ year non-competes that are rigidly enforced even on low level employees.
You really couldn’t even begin to understand the place unless you experience it (a misfortune I wouldn’t wish upon anyone). While the pay is great, you’ll need to factor in the cost of the years of therapy it will take to un-do the damage. While the philosophy may sound refreshing, it is quite the opposite and creates the most unpleasant, hostile working environment imaginable. People use the culture as an excuse to be ruthless and self-promoting. The only thing you gain from the place is an enormous network of brilliant alum who share in this clarity.
This guy believes that a) truth is good, and b) we should be transparent to avoid gossip and office politics. And all of you are tearing him to shreds? Clearly you prefer lying, backstabbing and nepotism.
@89 Um, I’m pretty sure he probably has a PR team that does that (and probably writes the responses for him)
Interesting old RD doesn’t refute anything about the COO recording get passed around…
@99 is correct. Having worked there, it all sounds great and in concept makes a lot sense. However, the culture of truth is used to drive expereinced hires out the door while the bright light of truth is never shined on the veterans of the firm. (The tunrover rate of new expereinced hires approaches 80% in 2 years.) Even more so, speaking the truth about Ray is not tolerated. Anyone who has the backbone to stand up to Ray is quickly fired and Ray is very good at hiring legions of consultants to come in and tell him what he wants to hear.
Speaking ‘the truth’ is not tolerated even in interviews – unless it is their version of ‘the truth’
how can Ray think he’s got the right views if his employee turn over is 80%?? and i wonder how he really feels about all the bad press bw is receiving from this blog?? these views of any company can not be good….. I hope he can look at these views and know that there must be some truths, if almost everyone has nothing good to say about him or the company it’s worth taking a step back and searching the all mighty truth!!!!!!!
I want to probe you like an animal
Look in my eyes, what do you see?
the Cult of Personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I’ve been everything you wanna be ohhh…
I’m the Cult of Personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I’m the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
Neon lights, Nobel Prize
When a mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You won’t have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
I’m the smiling face of your T.V. ohh…
I’m the Cult of Personality
I exploit you; still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three ohh…
I’m the Cult of Personality
Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi ohh…
I’m the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
Neon lights, Nobel Prize
When a leader speaks, that leader dies
You won’t have to follow me
Only you can set you free
(Guitar solo)
You gave me fortune, you gave me fame
You gave me power in your God’s name
I’m every person you need to be ohh…
I’m, the, Cult, of, Per, Son, Al, Ity
I am the Cult of (x8)
Personality
“Ask not what your country can do for you…” (John F. Kennedy)
“The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.” (Franklin D. Roosevelt)
Working at bwater is a horrible experience. The only people that like it there either come from campus and are drawn in by the money and parties or are so insecure and used to abuse that it feels like home to them. Most of the departments at bwater are sub par to those same departments elsewhere and you spend all your time there practicing cultural bullshit and not much else. If you are there for too long, you literally become unemployable anywhere else. The best thing about woking there is that anywhere else you work after there is fantastic. However, if you are looking for a job that beats you down every day, publicly humiliates you and has no appreciation for the skills you actually learned from your years of experience elsewhere, it’s the perfect job if you are lucky enough to be found worthy.
@105 When you are a narcissitic egomanic who thinks he is a management genius and capable of changing the world deep down you beleive you are right and everyone else is wrong. Ray and the other management committee members have said openly that the turnover problem is a result of hiring bad people, not a result of a bad culture. When you have been succeesful and are worth billions of dollars it tends to reinforce this deep seaded naricissim.
Accountability-what a concept. Just because you have to look someone in the face to bad-mouth them is good enough for me. Cowards beware. Where do I sign up, Ray?
the great thing about 360s is all your feedback is available to the whole department(or wider) year after year, in a normal company this sort of process would be susceptible to the bandwagon effect or group think but not at the bastion of truth that’s BW.
It is obvious most of you would not survive at BW since most of you could only respond as anonymous.
This is in response to 112 – otherwise known as “Not Important”. Do you really think that you are any different than those that responded as “anonymous” with that very self identifying name of “Not Important”? Seriously, how arrogant can you be?
@112 – if you don’t work there already, you’d fit right in.
If you use the computers they provide employees for checking their external email they keylog and screen capture everything you do. They have a whole team who monitors everyone’s activities on these computers, ie reading your personal email. If they find you’re interviewing or talking to recruiters they fire you.
I’m actually a former employee, and I liked the culture (I left because I hated CT). Sure, diagnosis sessions take forever, and you generally get more negative feedback than positive. But what good does positive feedback do? This isn’t kindergarten, and building self-esteem doesn’t get you far. Having frank conversations with coworkers/managers about your weaknesses is the best way to honestly assess them, and to grow and improve.
It can get a bit cult-ish, but that sort of makes sense. There’s one standard, and everyone adheres to it (like in the military, or a sports team, etc). I guess that would seem scary, except that part of the standard is open-mindedness, and they honestly value differences of opinion.
All this from people who believed Obama? Oy!
bottom line is that the Performance of Bridgewater sucks the carbunkled scrotum sack of an HIV+ Aids infected simian
There’s some smart stuff here, but this is HORRIBLY written. It is repetitive, poorly structured, and inefficient.
How the hell this is a management / philosophy manual is beyond me. I hope in their system of “truthfulness” someone hands Ray the manual full of red marks telling him to do it again.
There is no excuse for such a public, professional document to be any longer than 20 single spaced pages.
I hope this paper doesn’t speak to Bridgewater’s notion of quality. I was honestly disappointed.
Ray, thanks for telling us you were de-risking the allweather fund in 2008 AFTER you did it. And given you are so fond of the truth please stop quoting the performance of the strategy in presentations as if you had not de-risked the portfolio – there’s a 20% return difference between what you say it did and what i got in my account.
you guys don’t like the hyenna wildabeast metaphor? I see, so the hedgefund world is really more like charity non-profit work? is that the brutal truth? and as for attacking his son for starting a foundation that gives money to needy Chinese orphans, would you suggest a better place for him to put all his money than to help his son do some good in the world? should he buy the kid a Ferrari instead? and whoever said he should have a bullet in his head, you should have a bullet in your ballsack so you can no longer reproduce anyone one as stupid as you are into this world to oversimplify it any more than you already have.
@102 the COO recording is accurate- why would he refute it? It’s used as training material. Did you read his response?
@100 Nepotism does exist at the firm. By and large, however, it is done by RD only. It’s a sore point with some employees, but fair is not always equal as is made clear everyday by RD.
@101 There is no PR group. Ray writes every piece that comes out to the media himself (aside from editing).
@119 This is the 5th or 6th draft. And yes, it’s standard quality of RD writing, without heavy editing from others. But it’s a draft – drafts are allowed to be poorly written.
@all I’m new to this site, but I’m surprised no one has looked at the benefits given to people as part of the total package. For instance, 40+ year olds get the benefit of staying with all the new interns at Ray’s Vermont home and doing camping activities. Where else would this happen? All of these things show Ray’s generosity. It more than makes up for the 2+ year non-competes….
@122 Being honest and upfront with investors is more important than spreading cash around your inner circle or letting them stay at your Vermont home.
In addition to not telling investors they were de-risking allweather, Ray et al were less than forthcoming about the problems they had with beta replication in 2008 too. Bridgewater has lost sight of what it is supposed to do – look after OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. If this is not their primary purpose, then Ray should just look after his own money.
In his principles (http://www.bwater.com/Uploads/FileManager/Principles/Bridgewater-Associates-Ray-Dalio-Principles.pdf page 14) Ray Dalio claims "how much money people have earned is a rough measure of how much they gave society what it wanted —NOT how much they desired to make money. Look at what caused people to make a lot of money and you will see that usually it is in proportion to their production of what the society wanted and largely unrelated to their desire to make money."
It's amusing to see that he cannot see the difference between what society wants and what the market demands. Clearly, society wouldn't want drug dealers to get rich (even though there is a large market for drugs).
Haha…lets see… First and foremost, how much money do you have? Am I gonna believe him or your hating self?… Its easy, :) Just increase the production to how much YOU desire!!…
I don't work for Bridgewater or anything. But I surely wouldn't mind! ;)
Everybody gets what they want…
We are not Greece!!! Please people you better be careful in what you want….
But we can fight corruption if we can all come up with the best truthful answer….
All we need is an anti-corruption movement…That's it!! The whole world needs one… And we KNOW how to deal with corrupt people…scum of the earth, its easy to spit on them…haha
Well not easy…
ows think tank…
Please join and give your opinion
And personally, I don’t agree with the name…
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