The story so far is that a few days ago Bloomberg View claimed that the ten biggest U.S. banks got an annual subsidy of $83 billion from being too big to fail. That claim seemed silly to me, and I said so, and this weekend Bloomberg responded to that post saying, and I quote, “we weren’t kidding.” Apparently the people who keep the blogging rulebook believe that I now have to write a post in response to their response to my response to their original claim, and so this is that post. Actually this is that footnote, whatever.1

Up here let’s be super super naïve and just ask: how much do too big to fail banks pay to fund their balance sheets, and how much would they pay if they were smaller and failier and less government-supported? One dumb way to go about answering that is to actually just look at the cost of funding of some banks. We can start with the big five that Bloomberg uses – JPMorgan, BofA, Citi, Wells Fargo, and Goldman – and compare them to some smaller banks. Since Bloomberg seems to believe that Fitch believes that the TBTF banks would be rated around BBB- were it not for their TBTF-ness, we can compare them to some banks rated BBB- by Fitch. I chose five BBB- rated bank holding companies pseudorandomly from Fitch’s web page: Associated Banc Corp, TCF Financial Corp., First Horizon National Corporation, First Niagara Financial Group, and Zions Bancorporation.2 Then I just looked at how much those banks paid for their funding (interest expense, preferred dividends), compared to how much the big five banks pay.

Here are some average numbers:

Data and calculations are here. Now this oversimplifies a lot of things, of course, but as some wise people once said, “Our experience with such calculations has taught us that the simple approach typically gives you pretty much the same answer as the complicated approach.”3

The differences are striking, aren’t they? The small banks average less than 2% of the assets of the big ones, and at BBB- are rated 4 to 6 notches lower. But their blended average cost of funding is 20 basis points lower – not 80 basis points higher, as Bloomberg claims – than that of the big five too-big-to-fail banks.4 For the five banks combined, that 20bps of assets works out to over $16 billion per year. The too-big-to-fail banks are subsidizing us!

That’s silly of course: the reason JPMorgan and BofA and Citi pay more for funding is some combination of

  • Some of their funding sources don’t trust Fitch’s ratings implicitly, and think that funding Citi is riskier than funding a small boring BBB- rated regional bank, and
  • They rely on different sources of funding: instead of just “issue checking accounts and make loans,” they fund using repo and wholesale deposits and CP and relatively more long-term debt than the regional banks do, and those sources of funding have a higher cost than, y’know, checking accounts.5

The first source of the TBTF “penalty” that we’ve identified suggests that Bloomberg’s approach – which, at base, relies on Fitch’s analysis of (1) how safe banks are and (2) how much of that safety derives from government support – is wrong. Fitch may see more of a too-big-to-fail subsidy than the market does. Sometimes ratings agencies make mistakes.

But the second is more important. If you take Bloomberg’s approach at face value, then JPMorgan pays 80bps less for long-term debt than Associated Bank Corp does (2.2% vs. 3%, to make up numbers), and 80bps less for six-month CDs (0.5% vs. 1.3%, again, to make up numbers), and 80bps less for checking accounts (0.0% vs. 0.8%), and so on down the line. But that would only mean that JPMorgan pays 80bps less for its funding than Associated Bank Corp does if JPMorgan used the same mix of funding.

But it doesn’t. JPMorgan has way more long-term debt – something like 10% of its assets. (Goldman has 17%.) It relies less on checking account deposits and more on capital markets. And it ends up paying about 8 basis points more, not 80 basis points less, than Associated.

What does that mean? JPMorgan will tell you – at their investor day today, for instance – that it means they’re conservatively funded with, you guessed it, a fortress balance sheet:

This may not be the whole story – arguably consumer checking accounts, for all that they are demand liabilities, are a more conservative source of funding than repo lending. But it’s not wrong, either: the big capital markets banks, whether due to personal upstandingness, regulatory pressure, or market discipline, really do seem to fund longer-term, more conservatively, and more expensively than their non-too-big-to-fail brethren. Perhaps if they lost access to implicit government support, they’d find it more expensive to issue long-term debt. Perhaps then they’d stop, and rely more on deposits.

And then perhaps they’d shut down their capital markets businesses and become Associated Banc Corp.? And maybe that’d be a good thing? If you want to break up the banks, by all means, keep wanting to break up the banks. (Good luck!) But don’t do it on the basis that the big banks recklessly take TBTF-subsidized deposits and gamble them in capital markets. The opposite – that the TBTF banks use long-term expensive funding to appropriately cushion themselves from the risks of their capital markets businesses – seems closer to the truth.

Remember That $83 Billion Bank Subsidy? We Weren’t Kidding [Bloomberg View]
earlier: Why Should Taxpayers Give Big Banks A Subsidy of $83 Billion Per Year, Or Any Other Made-Up Number For That Matter?
Some math [Google Docs]

1. THING ONE: Bloomberg based its calculations on a paper which in turn relied on Fitch’s overall credit ratings and “support ratings,” which reflect Fitch’s estimate of how much TBTF support each bank gets. I expressed skepticism that Fitch’s views of credit generally and government support in particular are either (1) right or (2) accepted by the market broadly. Bloomberg did not address that skepticism. WINNER: ME.

THING TWO: The paper Bloomberg cited attempted to calculate the uplift that the big banks get from expected government support on five-year unsecured bonds. Bloomberg applied this to all liabilities, including things like FDIC-insured deposits, overnight secured funding, etc. I suggested that an 80bps spread (the number they came up with) on five-year unsecured bonds does not necessarily translate into an 80bps spread on overnight secured paper, or FDIC insured deposits. Bloomberg’s response is to cite another paper finding a funding advantage to too-big-to-fail banks on uninsured deposits too, from 2005 to 2010.

I have not read the paper closely but I note again that its conclusion sounds odd in a world where 1.2% is a very rich interest rate to get on your deposits. But as Bloomberg say, “The purpose of our analysis, and the study, is to estimate the long-term value of the too-big-to-fail discount,” so the fact that it has nothing to do with conditions existing in the present, recent past, or near future does not deter them. I also note that it’s quite strange to believe at the same time that (1) non-TBTF banks pay an 80bps premium on five-year unsecured debt and (2) they pay a 120bps premium on demand deposits. That is quite an inversion of the imaginary-TBTF-premium curve.

In any case that applies only to certain types of uninsured deposits, not the rest of the banks’ balance sheets. So I feel okay here? Still, I confess I overreached in doing my contrarian math of saying that the TBTF premium applies only to long-term unsecured bonds – surely there’s some cost savings for things like deposits and repos – though I doubt it’s 80bps. As they say, “it’s true that including deposits might skew the results. Problem is, so would excluding them.” That’s not wrong. I’d call this one a draw.

THING THREE: They computed their 80bps TBTF subsidy based on the average subsidy to any TBTF bank worldwide, as computed by the paper they relied on. I pointed out that the U.S. TBTF banks they actually looked at got a much more modest subsidy, according to that same paper, just because they were highly rated to begin with and, as the paper said, “government support is more ‘valuable’ at lower rating levels.” The right number, I thought, was more like 30bps.

They have two responses. The first is that the big five U.S. banks got six notches of uplift, from BBB- to AA-, which implies 50bps of uplift, closer to my 30bps than their 80. This is based on 2009 data; only one of those banks, Wells Fargo, is actually still rated AA-, with the rest in the A range with as far as I can tell four notches of uplift (from BBB- to A’ish). I think I win this one, unless you really care about 2009 much more than 2013.

The other response is that those numbers come from a very long-term premium for debt ratings:

Because we’re focusing on the U.S. and because the experience of the 1920s isn’t necessarily a good indicator of what will happen in the coming years, we might want to use a more relevant measure. Consider the difference between two Bank of America Merrill Lynch indexes that track the yields on actual AA and BBB bank debt in the U.S. Over the 10 years through early 2008, the average gap was 1.13 percentage points. From this perspective, our blind use of 0.8 looks conservative.

This seems fair to me: even as I did it, it struck me as a little silly to claim that the difference between an A and BBB- bank was 30bps on senior unsecured debt, even though that’s what Bloomberg’s source paper said. If you use actual current spreads, it gives them some breathing room to be wrong on some stuff, since those spreads are wider than historical levels.

2. Methodology: go to Fitch web page, search for U.S. banks rated BBB+/BBB/BBB-, choose first five BBB- names that sounded clearly BHC-y (as opposed to bank-subsidiary-y). I’m willing to believe that this is an unrepresentative sample but so it goes.

3. Bloomberg View, I don’t want to tell you how to live your life, but: never say that! It’s self-evidently wrong, for one thing (“when I design an airplane, I find …”), and it has a whiff of math-is-hard, for another, but most importantly: my experience with such (?) calculations (?) has taught me that there are lots of simple approaches and they all contradict each other. My approach in the text is, I submit, simpler than the approach of relying on an econometric paper using Fitch ratings, and it gets the opposite result, so I win, or something.

4. That is, their cost of non-common-equity funding. I am not a huuuuuge believer in the idea that common equity has a high and quantifiable cost but whatever. The non-TBTF banks run an average of 131bps less common equity, so if you’re a deep believer in the cost of equity then you might worry about that. What’s the cost of equity for banks? Is it 10%, as some people seem to believe? Then the TBTF penalty is only like 6 bps:

5. Also the arithmetic fact that the small banks have more equity and I’m implicitly assigning a zero cost to common equity in the main text. If you charge for equity it’s more like a push than a penalty.

66 comments (hidden to protect delicate sensibilities)
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Comments (66)

  1. Posted by Im_a_Dude | February 26, 2013 at 2:32 PM

    Alright, Matt going head to head with the almighty Bloomberg.
    make us proud, Matt.

  2. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM

    Bloomberg done picked the wrong fight. Matt makes more charts and graphs by lunchtime than that clown could make with two weeks preparation and a small army of floozy interns.

  3. Posted by Gozer | February 26, 2013 at 2:37 PM

    Never seen Matt experience so much butt hurt

  4. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 2:39 PM

    Matt, I heard you and the iditos that wrote the Bloomberg articles are the undercard for the next Icahn-Ackman cage match. Any truth to this?

  5. Posted by St. Copious | February 26, 2013 at 2:41 PM

    "Perhaps if they lost access to implicit government support, they’d find it more expensive to issue long-term debt."

    "Perhaps"???

  6. Posted by CaptObvious | February 26, 2013 at 2:44 PM

    I didn't realize Shazar was the head editor at Bloomberg now.

  7. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 2:48 PM

    "Those clowns"

    The rebuttal was writen by "the Editors"- don't want to leave anyone out.

  8. Posted by Foghorn Leghorn | February 26, 2013 at 2:53 PM

    "The Editors." Sounds like a "Star Chamber" type group to me. A journalistic cabal united against DB.

  9. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 3:01 PM

    Matt, I want to make love to your brain and then eat it.

    -Zombie Cannibal Cop Quant

  10. Posted by asianbankingsensation | February 26, 2013 at 3:03 PM

    Matt, you had me at "TBTF" ;)

  11. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 3:07 PM

    Someone once told me that Matt only debates when he's going to win.
    And damn did he win.

  12. Posted by Guesti | February 26, 2013 at 3:07 PM

    Must suck to pick a fight with a kid who took a 95% paycut to do this for fun, and lose.

    – Team Matt

  13. Posted by CaptObvious | February 26, 2013 at 3:08 PM

    Bloomberg should focus on

    1. telling us why the French are right to turn off city lights at night (and quote public safety advice from astronomers and literature professors);
    2. telling us why we should not be permitted to drink beverages from large and/or styrofoam containers
    3. telling us why we should not be worried about being shoved onto subway tracks.

    Thanks!

  14. Posted by Michael Scott | February 26, 2013 at 3:17 PM

    Boom, Roasted.

  15. Posted by Matson Chruchill | February 26, 2013 at 3:18 PM

    We shall fight them in the title, we shall fight them in the text, we shall fight them in the footnotes; we shall fight those Bloomberg bastards back to their realm of limited size sodas without styrofoam containers. We shall never surrender!

  16. Posted by Is that even legal? | February 26, 2013 at 3:18 PM

    Block quote within footnote = mind blown

  17. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 3:26 PM

    Team Levine

  18. Posted by Tearful Guest | February 26, 2013 at 3:35 PM

    You are my hero, Matt. Thank you. Just…. thank you.

  19. Posted by Jewish School Child | February 26, 2013 at 3:41 PM

    Matt bullied me with charts.

  20. Posted by Nervous@Bloomberg | February 26, 2013 at 3:42 PM

    Really hoping Levine Terminals aren't where he comes at us next.

  21. Posted by Guestoramous | February 26, 2013 at 3:44 PM

    Matt is no longer capable of blowing my mind after he footnoted a footnote a week or so back.

  22. Posted by Guesti | February 26, 2013 at 3:47 PM

    Footnote 1 – Paragraph 6 – First word – THEY********

    – guy who thought he would be excited but is actually a little sad at Matt's first grammar error.

  23. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM

    I have.

    -Lamar Rambone

  24. Posted by Maaaatt Daaaamooon | February 26, 2013 at 3:52 PM

    Footnoteception. We need to go deeper…

  25. Posted by Wire | February 26, 2013 at 3:53 PM

    Take a look at this love-fest, Shazar. Matt got some nasty comments at first, too. Not as many as you get, granted, but still.

  26. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 4:02 PM

    I'd like to pretend that after Matt had Shitzar type out this article, he sent his original notes, handwritten on a used napkin, to Bloomberg….. along with a mentos booby trapped 2 liter soda bottle…..

    Yup, that would just about make the time I spent reading the footnotes worth it.

  27. Posted by Matt's Mom | February 26, 2013 at 4:05 PM

    Please don't compare my son to that freak with the chihuahua that called the house the other day asking if anyone there could explain the difference between debt and equity, because it was really confusing him.

  28. Posted by PhilD | February 26, 2013 at 4:17 PM

    What are the interest RATES the TBTF banks are paying to borrow money, citing interest as a % of liabilities or % of assets isn't really telling me anything.

  29. Posted by Go Away Bloomberg | February 26, 2013 at 4:23 PM

    Yes, it is, you're just too much of a moron to understand it.

  30. Posted by Texashedge | February 26, 2013 at 4:33 PM

    Bloomberg here is like the Arab guy in Indiana Jones who waves the sword around displaying years of practice and training.

    And Matt just fucking shoots him.

  31. Posted by Guestoramous | February 26, 2013 at 4:33 PM

    Actually, I think that interest as a % of liabilities is exactly what you'd need to find out your interest rate (if Principal * Interest Rate = Interest, then Interest / Principal = Interest Rate). Although one problem here is that a portion of liabilities (the demand and time deposits and savings accounts) should have an interest rate that is not directly reduced by the TBTF subsidy (as it is insured), although it is indirectly affected (if a TBTF bank can borrow in the repo market, it might not need to be as attractive to depositors). Also, depositors are attracted by factors other than interest rate (convenience of ATMs and branches, account fees, which bank extended a HELOC). And finally, it's a difficult comparison to make since TBTF and non-TBTF banks have a very different allocation of liabilities. All of these problems were acknowledged by Matt.

    As you state, interest as a % of assets isn't as useful. It's also not used. Matt does use interest + preferred dividends as a % of assets, which also doesn't seem particularly useful to me (it's redundant with the next box that TBTF banks are slightly more leveraged than non-TBTF banks). But more data is always better [from the standpoint of an investment banker looking to confuse you].

  32. Posted by Jamie Dimon | February 26, 2013 at 4:38 PM

    Umm, you're laying it on a little think with the negative sixteen billion. Approved talking points are… there is no TBTF any more, a proper Treasury Secretary (like me) could wind up a big bank before lunch without causing a ripple in the market. And…we're doing God's work, big companies need big banks. And… we never really needed a bailout, we just took it because Hank asked nicely. It's costing me money to be big? You trying to make me look stupid?

  33. Posted by FKApmco | February 26, 2013 at 4:52 PM

    Matt said to Bloomberg: You come against me with total liabilities and "facial" aspects and a simple approach that typically gives you pretty much the same answer as the complicated approach but I come against you in the name of Dealbreaker whom you have defied. This day the Lord will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Bloomberg Editors to the birds and the wild animals. And Matt triumphed over the Bloomberg Editors with charts, graphs, spreadsheets, footnotes, and footnotes within footnotes; he struck down the Editors and killed them."
    –1 Samuel 17 (revised edition)

  34. Posted by Lloyd | February 26, 2013 at 4:53 PM

    Calm down Jamie, at least you're not coming to the realization the guy actually enjoys this shit, and here you had been paying him handsomely for years under the assumption doing this stuff 24/7 wasn't his idea of fun.

  35. Posted by Shazar Replacement | February 26, 2013 at 5:05 PM
  36. Posted by J. Gundlach | February 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM

    You had me at facial.

  37. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 5:08 PM

    Looking forward to the Dealbreaker Dramatic Reading of this.

  38. Posted by Sam L | February 26, 2013 at 5:15 PM

    I pictured Matt's interaction with bloomberg as more of an Ezekiel 25 17

    [youtube -FlTj6fcSJ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FlTj6fcSJ8 youtube]

  39. Posted by CAPM | February 26, 2013 at 5:17 PM

    Like a boss…

  40. Posted by guest | February 26, 2013 at 5:19 PM

    :: typewriter drop ::

  41. Posted by LSO Fan | February 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM

    Free on nights and weekends, with no discernible skills? Are you a Bloomberg editor or my cellphone bill?

  42. Posted by PermaGuestII | February 26, 2013 at 5:40 PM

    And Saint Matt raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemy Bloombergers to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu…

  43. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 6:02 PM

    The first 5 seconds of this is all you need to describe Matt's interaction with Bloomberg

  44. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 6:03 PM

    Clarification: the guy on the couch is Bloomberg's analysis

  45. Posted by Jamie Dimon | February 26, 2013 at 6:08 PM

    I guess that's why you make more money than me.

  46. Posted by Elizabeth Warren | February 26, 2013 at 7:21 PM

    http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000150552

    Matt please submit your analysis BEFORE I question Bernanke next time.

    -Elizabeth Warren

  47. Posted by Guest | February 26, 2013 at 7:34 PM

    Elizabeth Warren desperately needs some Laxbro love…

  48. Posted by FKApmco | February 26, 2013 at 9:40 PM

    And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
    Amen.

  49. Posted by Commenariat | February 26, 2013 at 9:44 PM

    TEAM LEVINE

  50. Posted by EricW | February 27, 2013 at 3:20 AM

    The dealbreaker comment section is like 4chan for bankers…

  51. Posted by EricW | February 27, 2013 at 3:25 AM

    Matt Levine: "This just in! Here's a study I did on the hours of sleep the average bulge bracket employee gets. Result: the average is 8 hours!

    Footnote: We didn't include any datapoints from anyone in investment banking, S&T or senior management. We only included Ops and HR. And we only included sleep hours on weekends. I’m willing to believe that this is an unrepresentative sample but so it goes."

    ————-

    I'd like to see your analysis with a wider variety of non-TBTF banks, rather than with the top 5 on the fitch webpage which you admitted isn't necessarily a representative sample in the footnotes. I guess by outright stating this in the footnotes, you're trying to preempt the criticism…but the fact still stands that it's not necessarily representative and so you really aren't proving anything.

  52. Posted by Surprised Reader | February 27, 2013 at 8:19 AM

    Interesting that the mother of one of the Bloomberg editors took the time to come here and post this.

  53. Posted by Guest | February 27, 2013 at 8:23 AM

    faggot.

    – 4chan MD

  54. Posted by EricW | February 27, 2013 at 8:26 AM

    you seem dumb

  55. Posted by Laxbro | February 27, 2013 at 8:36 AM

    She kind of looks like a CS prof that failed me sophomore year. I would have done anything not to retake that course. Anything.

  56. Posted by guest | February 27, 2013 at 9:41 AM

    Did you get lost on the way over to HuffPo?

  57. Posted by EricW | February 27, 2013 at 9:44 AM

    Nice counterargument.

  58. Posted by Guestido | February 27, 2013 at 10:24 AM

    How about you research and present an analysis with said other banks instead of asking Matt to do your homework for you? Then you can come back here and comment on "counterarguments."

  59. Posted by EricW | February 27, 2013 at 11:37 AM

    I think you're misunderstanding my position. I have no idea who's right about the TBTF subsidy. It's clear that the banks get SOME kind of funding advantage due to the implicit government insurance against failure. The Bloomberg article was obviously misleading and Matt could very well be right that the advantage is small. Just pointing out that his analysis on this particular argument isn't an effective counter to Bloomberg's claims, regardless of his 8-Mile-"I-AM-white!" pre-empting-the-counterargument strategy that he hides in the footnotes. The onus is on him to make reasonable arguments against Bloomberg if he wants to wave his dick in the air at them and call bullshit…the onus isn't on me to break out Stata and Excel and write a thesis

  60. Posted by Guest | February 27, 2013 at 11:41 AM

    I think this is his counterargument.
    http://depositorsunion.org/?p=47

  61. Posted by Gold Pass Holder | February 27, 2013 at 12:24 PM

    Well then why don't you just ask for your money back?

  62. Posted by DKM | February 27, 2013 at 4:45 PM

    Nice job Matt. I've read my share of unintelligent stories from Bloomberg, but this time, they really manifested their own ignorance by arguing with someone who actually knows how the capital market works.
    I’m guessing it was Cohan, is that right?

  63. Posted by LCB | March 1, 2013 at 2:47 PM

    Great article, Matt. This 'funding advantage' is complete voodoo math.

  64. Posted by العاب تلبيس بنات | July 15, 2013 at 8:56 AM

    العاب تلبيس بنات http://www.girls-gamess.com/

  65. Posted by George L. | March 31, 2014 at 5:41 PM

    I'd like to see your analysis with a wider variety of non-TBTF banks, rather than with the top 5 on the fitch webpage which you admitted isn't necessarily a representative sample in the footnotes. I guess by outright stating this in the footnotes, you're trying to preempt the criticism…but the fact still stands that it's not necessarily representative and so you really aren't proving anything.
    Indeed, some very good points.

  66. Posted by pembesarpayudara | May 1, 2014 at 11:18 AM

    I like your post. It is good to see you verbalize from the heart and clarity on this important subject can be easily observed.